Mother-Son Incest Case

[viper37]

Eh, I'm okay with the state prohibiting things that are so against the broad social morality.

like homosexuality?

Not anymore.

depends where.  Do you think it is socially acceptable in the Deep US South?  In Saudi Arabia?  In Nigeria?  In Russia?

[Valmy]

Do you think it is socially acceptable in the Deep US South?

Hell it was practically mandatory in the Deep US South back in the old days

[viper37]

Do you think it is socially acceptable in the Deep US South?

Hell it was practically mandatory in the Deep US South back in the old days

right.  What happens behind the closed doors of an airport bathroom is not what I was referring to!

[garbon]

Eh, I'm okay with the state prohibiting things that are so against the broad social morality.

like homosexuality?

Not anymore.

depends where.  Do you think it is socially acceptable in the Deep US South?  In Saudi Arabia?  In Nigeria?  In Russia?

So by broad social morality (which presumably we were talking about the west), you think of one are of the US and some backward countries?

[Martinus]

Viper is right though. Otto's and to a lesser extent PDH's position is intellectually lazy and irrational.

If you believe in individual rights, then liberty, especially in the area as important to self-actualisation and emotional well-being, as sexual expression, should be the default position, and you need a damn good reason to restrict it, especially when employing the state's violence apparatus to enforce such restriction.

The position that "it's icky" or "it has been always considered icky" is an obscurantist one. And as viper rightly points out, the case of homosexuality in the West should disable this line of reasoning entirely.

[Eddie Teach]

The masses are lazy and irrational.

[Sheilbh]

Viper is right though. Otto's and to a lesser extent PDH's position is intellectually lazy and irrational.

If you believe in individual rights, then liberty, especially in the area as important to self-actualisation and emotional well-being, as sexual expression, should be the default position, and you need a damn good reason to restrict it, especially when employing the state's violence apparatus to enforce such restriction.

Lazy and irrational isn't always bad, often active and rational political positions have tended to be worse. We crooked timber and our societies are crooked too generally that's better than people trying to straighten them out.

As ever reason is hugely over-rated in human affairs and needs to be pulled from its pedestal. We're not rational creatures which is part of the reason we need society limiting individual rights and systems with checks and balances etc is to protect ourselves from our own irrationality - or worse the delusional few who think they're rational.

I'm always a little uncomfortable with the language of individual rights. I think it dangerously depoliticises the struggles to win those rights.

[Berkut]

We need systems to protect ourselves from our irrationality, which is why we should fear and devalue reason.

Got it.

[Sheilbh]

Don't fear it, but fear those who proclaim themselves rational very loudly and people who put reason on a pedestal. It doesn't need to be devalued just put back where it belongs as one of a large number of factors in making decisions.

[PDH]

How do individual rights fit within a group social system?  As far as I can figure it, we as humans, despite our focus on individualism that has arisen, still live within a mass organic system made up of billions of people.

There must be rules, and the basic ones start off as rules for smaller scale societies, back by taboo, social pressure, and the threat of punishment.  If there is a valid social reason to have the taboo, not just irrational fighting against individualism, then that has to be looked at.  The fact that the incest taboo does indeed exist almost universally seems to indicate there is a cross-cultural social reason for it.  I suggested on idea, which may well be hogwash, but it is not the "why" in this case that makes incest important, it is the fact that it is such a near universal that does.  As soon as we are discussing cross-cultural rationality, all sorts of weird issues can jump up - the fact that this does seem to be there makes incest taboos nearly fundamental to the human existence.

The fact that people so flippantly think that culture is something that is just changes on a dime are the ones who do not seem to grasp that all the other millions within the culture are also people who are giving input into that culture.

[Berkut]

Don't fear it, but fear those who proclaim themselves rational very loudly and people who put reason on a pedestal. It doesn't need to be devalued just put back where it belongs as one of a large number of factors in making decisions.

Of course, it doesn't need to be "devalued" just seen as only equal in value to other equally valuable irrational factors like bigotry, intolerance, racism, group thinking, tribalism, superstition, fear, and hatred.

"Reason" should in fact be on a pedestal compared to all the idiotic irrational bullshit that humans have typically used in its place to make decisions. I know this because I consulted the oracle at Delphi and they told me so.


note: I love the way you demand that those who disagree with you do so quietly, because you know, stating what you believe "loudly" is of course evidence for...something.


You, of course, are free to proclaim your disgust with reason as loudly as you like, I am sure.

[Berkut]

How do individual rights fit within a group social system?  As far as I can figure it, we as humans, despite our focus on individualism that has arisen, still live within a mass organic system made up of billions of people.

There must be rules, and the basic ones start off as rules for smaller scale societies, back by taboo, social pressure, and the threat of punishment.  If there is a valid social reason to have the taboo, not just irrational fighting against individualism, then that has to be looked at.  The fact that the incest taboo does indeed exist almost universally seems to indicate there is a cross-cultural social reason for it.  I suggested on idea, which may well be hogwash, but it is not the "why" in this case that makes incest important, it is the fact that it is such a near universal that does.  As soon as we are discussing cross-cultural rationality, all sorts of weird issues can jump up - the fact that this does seem to be there makes incest taboos nearly fundamental to the human existence.

The fact that people so flippantly think that culture is something that is just changes on a dime are the ones who do not seem to grasp that all the other millions within the culture are also people who are giving input into that culture.

I don't disagree in broad strokes, but will note that there are lots of consistent taboos or rules that exist across cultures that we rightly and reasonably (albeit quietly so as not to offend those who want to ignore reason) have decided are irrational and unreasonable, and have let fall away. Slavery, personal violence, religious extremism, indeed the basic idea of personal liberty itself is relatively new, and most cultures have a history of denial of individual liberty.

So the idea that the myriad of taboos around sexual conduct slowly falling away is itself a cultural phenomenon itself. Whether this particular one will (or ought to) fall away as well is a different question I suppose.

I used to be a bit more "libertarian" on this view, but I actually think Malthus did a pretty good job of convincing me that there are some good reasons to maintain this restriction despite individual cases where it seems pretty meaningless.

[Razgovory]

Don't fear it, but fear those who proclaim themselves rational very loudly and people who put reason on a pedestal. It doesn't need to be devalued just put back where it belongs as one of a large number of factors in making decisions.

Of course, it doesn't need to be "devalued" just seen as only equal in value to other equally valuable irrational factors like bigotry, intolerance, racism, group thinking, tribalism, superstition, fear, and hatred.

"Reason" should in fact be on a pedestal compared to all the idiotic irrational bullshit that humans have typically used in its place to make decisions. I know this because I consulted the oracle at Delphi and they told me so.


note: I love the way you demand that those who disagree with you do so quietly, because you know, stating what you believe "loudly" is of course evidence for...something.


You, of course, are free to proclaim your disgust with reason as loudly as you like, I am sure.

Or other irrational ideas such as mercy, compassion, justice and equality.

[grumbler]

Don't fear it, but fear those who proclaim themselves rational very loudly and people who put reason on a pedestal. It doesn't need to be devalued just put back where it belongs as one of a large number of factors in making decisions.

I love people who try to use rationality to discredit rationality! 

the fact of the matter is that rationality is the only means by which humans can accurately relate to one another; emotions don't translate accurately.  If a person cannot explain the reasons why he or she thinks another person should agree about a policy or behavior, then the only hope that person has to get agreement is coercion.  Coercion-based societies are unstable and therefor undesirable.

[dps]

Don't fear it, but fear those who proclaim themselves rational very loudly and people who put reason on a pedestal. It doesn't need to be devalued just put back where it belongs as one of a large number of factors in making decisions.

I love people who try to use rationality to discredit rationality! 

the fact of the matter is that rationality is the only means by which humans can accurately relate to one another; emotions don't translate accurately.  If a person cannot explain the reasons why he or she thinks another person should agree about a policy or behavior, then the only hope that person has to get agreement is coercion.  Coercion-based societies are unstable and therefor undesirable.

And iff you play anty of Europa Universalist game series, you come to value stability quite highly.