Saudi Arabia to behead boy for political protest

[viper37]

Somehow I have the feeling that the US government already had these conversations with the respective parties, and they didn't produce the desired changes.

I would argue that in fact Saudi Arabia has already engaged in noticeable reforms and changes in policy.

Yes, you are right:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Saudi_Arabia_relations

[OttoVonBismarck]

I largely don't have a problem with Israeli behavior in the West Bank. It's ugly but there's no meaningful alternative, and many have been tried.

[OttoVonBismarck]

I think business as usual with Saudi Arabia does involve "mild" pressure on them, and like Yi said I do think it's slowly produced very minor results. The U.S., U.K., and other major western powers regularly publicly rebuke Saudi Arabia's worst excesses, or even get involved in cases to try and get clemencies and etc. That is, to me, "business as usual", something different would be taking a hard line position towards them.

[Martinus]

I think business as usual with Saudi Arabia does involve "mild" pressure on them, and like Yi said I do think it's slowly produced very minor results. The U.S., U.K., and other major western powers regularly publicly rebuke Saudi Arabia's worst excesses, or even get involved in cases to try and get clemencies and etc. That is, to me, "business as usual", something different would be taking a hard line position towards them.

To me the problem comes with considering the Saudis as a sort of a valuable ally. Someone else mentioned Libya under Qadaffi and Iraq under Saddam here. Sure, toppling them proved unwise in retrospect and toppling the Saudis would probably be similarly disastrous - but Western leaders were not, generally, kowtowing to those dictators - they were pariahs that were barely tolerated by the civilised Western nations. Why we do not use the same approach with respect to the Saudis is beyond me.

[Martinus]

I largely don't have a problem with Israeli behavior in the West Bank. It's ugly but there's no meaningful alternative, and many have been tried.

Me neither. In fact, given the recent outpouring of Islamic terrorism in the West, I can't wait for the governments of France and Germany to adopt a similar approach.

[Hamilcar]

I largely don't have a problem with Israeli behavior in the West Bank. It's ugly but there's no meaningful alternative, and many have been tried.

Me neither. In fact, given the recent outpouring of Islamic terrorism in the West, I can't wait for the governments of France and Germany to adopt a similar approach.

I have an Israeli colleague (IDF service, somewhat senior, now out) who just shakes his head and laughs at Europe. Belgian security in particular has become a running joke.

[Sheilbh]

I think business as usual with Saudi Arabia does involve "mild" pressure on them, and like Yi said I do think it's slowly produced very minor results. The U.S., U.K., and other major western powers regularly publicly rebuke Saudi Arabia's worst excesses, or even get involved in cases to try and get clemencies and etc. That is, to me, "business as usual", something different would be taking a hard line position towards them.

To me the problem comes with considering the Saudis as a sort of a valuable ally. Someone else mentioned Libya under Qadaffi and Iraq under Saddam here. Sure, toppling them proved unwise in retrospect and toppling the Saudis would probably be similarly disastrous - but Western leaders were not, generally, kowtowing to those dictators - they were pariahs that were barely tolerated by the civilised Western nations. Why we do not use the same approach with respect to the Saudis is beyond me.

I think you may have forgotten Qadaffi's extended tour of European capitals in his bedouin tent.

The problem is Saudi is a valuable ally. Cameron was pressed on Saudi repeatedly in an interview (because it's a favourite issue of Corbyn so it had come up) and after being asked in an interview about it three or four times he basically snapped that the reason we're friendly with Saudi is they help our national security and there were a number of occasions when he was aware of Saudi intelligence actually stopping attacks in and over the UK. So the question for politicians and electorates is how much national security you're willing to sacrifice for the sake of being morally correct on human rights and potentially in the long-term, potentially seeing a decline in successful propagandising for Salafi/jihadi ideologies? My suspicion is politicians (rightly would be my guess) think the answer is very, very little.

[Razgovory]

I think business as usual with Saudi Arabia does involve "mild" pressure on them, and like Yi said I do think it's slowly produced very minor results. The U.S., U.K., and other major western powers regularly publicly rebuke Saudi Arabia's worst excesses, or even get involved in cases to try and get clemencies and etc. That is, to me, "business as usual", something different would be taking a hard line position towards them.

To me the problem comes with considering the Saudis as a sort of a valuable ally. Someone else mentioned Libya under Qadaffi and Iraq under Saddam here. Sure, toppling them proved unwise in retrospect and toppling the Saudis would probably be similarly disastrous - but Western leaders were not, generally, kowtowing to those dictators - they were pariahs that were barely tolerated by the civilised Western nations. Why we do not use the same approach with respect to the Saudis is beyond me.

Lots of things are beyond you. Iraq and Libya invaded their neighbors and were believed to be aligned with the Soviet Union.  I can see why you would want the US-Saudi alliance to fail, it benefits the West, something you are not part of.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

I largely don't have a problem with Israeli behavior in the West Bank. It's ugly but there's no meaningful alternative, and many have been tried.

Me neither. In fact, given the recent outpouring of Islamic terrorism in the West, I can't wait for the governments of France and Germany to adopt a similar approach.

I have an Israeli colleague (IDF service, somewhat senior, now out) who just shakes his head and laughs at Europe. Belgian security in particular has become a running joke.

become? it has always been iirc. But what do you expect? C'est belge... 

[Crazy_Ivan80]

I think business as usual with Saudi Arabia does involve "mild" pressure on them, and like Yi said I do think it's slowly produced very minor results. The U.S., U.K., and other major western powers regularly publicly rebuke Saudi Arabia's worst excesses, or even get involved in cases to try and get clemencies and etc. That is, to me, "business as usual", something different would be taking a hard line position towards them.

To me the problem comes with considering the Saudis as a sort of a valuable ally. Someone else mentioned Libya under Qadaffi and Iraq under Saddam here. Sure, toppling them proved unwise in retrospect and toppling the Saudis would probably be similarly disastrous - but Western leaders were not, generally, kowtowing to those dictators - they were pariahs that were barely tolerated by the civilised Western nations. Why we do not use the same approach with respect to the Saudis is beyond me.

Lots of things are beyond you. Iraq and Libya invaded their neighbors and were believed to be aligned with the Soviet Union.  I can see why you would want the US-Saudi alliance to fail, it benefits the West, something you are not part of.

the question is of course to what extent that benefit is nullified by the wahabi/salafist shit Saudi exports all over the world, with significant effect.

[Savonarola]

Israel did it for me a couple years ago. I was sort of freaked out about getting an Israeli stamp since so many countries don't like it (I knew you could avoid getting it stamped, but was worried they would do so anyway), but when I handed over my passport and quickly started asking him not to stamp, he said, "don't worry at all, we don't stamp" and just inserted a transit card into the passport. I got the impression he would have done so even if I didn't ask.

On the reverse side, one of our radio supplier's engineers had a project in Syria that required his constant attention over the course of several years.  So he came to Israel and they started looking over his passport.

Passport Control Agent:  How many times have you been to Syria?
Keith:  I don't know, a couple dozen?

He said he had a nice, long conversation with the Mossad after that.

[mongers]

I think you may have forgotten Qadaffi's extended tour of European capitals in his bedouin tent.

The problem is Saudi is a valuable ally. Cameron was pressed on Saudi repeatedly in an interview (because it's a favourite issue of Corbyn so it had come up) and after being asked in an interview about it three or four times he basically snapped that the reason we're friendly with Saudi is they help our national security and there were a number of occasions when he was aware of Saudi intelligence actually stopping attacks in and over the UK. So the question for politicians and electorates is how much national security you're willing to sacrifice for the sake of being morally correct on human rights and potentially in the long-term, potentially seeing a decline in successful propagandising for Salafi/jihadi ideologies? My suspicion is politicians (rightly would be my guess) think the answer is very, very little.

Carpet bomb the government districts of Riyadh and I guarantee you'll see a reduction.

[dps]

I largely don't have a problem with Israeli behavior in the West Bank. It's ugly but there's no meaningful alternative, and many have been tried.

Me neither. In fact, given the recent outpouring of Islamic terrorism in the West, I can't wait for the governments of France and Germany to adopt a similar approach.

I doubt that the governments of France and Germany are particularly interested in establishing settlements in the West Bank.  And if Germany get an expansionistic itch again, why would they go to the Middle East when Poland is still right next door?

[Razgovory]

I think business as usual with Saudi Arabia does involve "mild" pressure on them, and like Yi said I do think it's slowly produced very minor results. The U.S., U.K., and other major western powers regularly publicly rebuke Saudi Arabia's worst excesses, or even get involved in cases to try and get clemencies and etc. That is, to me, "business as usual", something different would be taking a hard line position towards them.

To me the problem comes with considering the Saudis as a sort of a valuable ally. Someone else mentioned Libya under Qadaffi and Iraq under Saddam here. Sure, toppling them proved unwise in retrospect and toppling the Saudis would probably be similarly disastrous - but Western leaders were not, generally, kowtowing to those dictators - they were pariahs that were barely tolerated by the civilised Western nations. Why we do not use the same approach with respect to the Saudis is beyond me.

Lots of things are beyond you. Iraq and Libya invaded their neighbors and were believed to be aligned with the Soviet Union.  I can see why you would want the US-Saudi alliance to fail, it benefits the West, something you are not part of.

the question is of course to what extent that benefit is nullified by the wahabi/salafist shit Saudi exports all over the world, with significant effect.

How would ending the US/Saudi alliance put an end to "the wahabi/salafist shit Saudi"?

[alfred russel]

Israel did it for me a couple years ago. I was sort of freaked out about getting an Israeli stamp since so many countries don't like it (I knew you could avoid getting it stamped, but was worried they would do so anyway), but when I handed over my passport and quickly started asking him not to stamp, he said, "don't worry at all, we don't stamp" and just inserted a transit card into the passport. I got the impression he would have done so even if I didn't ask.

On the reverse side, one of our radio supplier's engineers had a project in Syria that required his constant attention over the course of several years.  So he came to Israel and they started looking over his passport.

Passport Control Agent:  How many times have you been to Syria?
Keith:  I don't know, a couple dozen?

He said he had a nice, long conversation with the Mossad after that.

After the first paragraph, I was expecting your story would end, "He got Israel to stamp his passport so wouldn't be allowed back into Syria and would force the company to send him to another assignment."