Mass killing in Orlando gay nightclub

[OttoVonBismarck]

I am one who has spoken many times that we should identify the problem clearly, and without political correctness that is demanded.

But I do NOT think the President is necessarily the person to do that - he has a very specific role, and he should be very careful about the language he uses. If he thinks calling an attacking like this radical Islamic terrorism will help, then by all means go for it, but there is a war of ideas going on right now in the world, and frankly the USA is a very tertiary front in that war.

While these attacks obviously directly affect us, we are not the true targets per se - we are a proxy. We are a way for groups like ISIS to make the argument that THEY represent "true islam", the true followers who will fight for their religion against those who seek to destroy it. As such, in that war, it makes sense to understand how the language our leaders use helps or hinders the greater effort of winning that war of ideas.

*We* should be very willing to call a spade a spade when we talk about our own security concerns. Our politicians and diplomats need to keep a bigger picture in mind, and be very careful to make sure that they don't do exactly what ISIS *wants* us to do when they engage in attacks like this, which is to jump in with both feet and feed the narrative of the West against Islam, with only ISIS as the credible defender.

I actually agree with the sentiment here, the President doesn't need, and shouldn't be, the harshest voice on any topic since he's Diplomat-in-Chief among other things. But I guess where I disagree is, I don't think even in the Muslim world condemning "radical Islamic terrorism" would be that controversial. I think most Muslims are smart enough to recognize that ISIS and al-Qaeda represent a highly radical form of Islam. While some use the language "they are not Islamic", Islam is and always has been a fairly decentralized religion (other than Shia Islam with its Ayatollahs, but even it is more decentralized than say Catholicism or even many Protestant denominations) and no one gets to say who is Muslim and who isn't. There is no neutral, all powerful arbiter of that.

[Berkut]

He's the President of the United States and sets the tone for a lot of things, there's a reason most of the mainstream left is focusing on idiocies like homophobia and gun control, which are frankly largely irrelevant in this specific instance.

I guess actions do not speak louder than words after all.

And yes he does set the tone for a lot of things. So him saying anti-Islamic things is likely to be very disastrous for our interests. Which is exactly what I was saying. As for the Mainstream left it is not like they are ever going to be other than what they are no matter what Obama says.

I think the problem is you and people like you view it as "anti-Islamic" to condemn radical Islam. Yet no one has a problem blasting fundamentalist Christianity's radical beliefs.

There isn't an ongoing war between factions of Christianity that we need to be concerned about.

This war between factions seems like a myth to me - or rather, it's not what you think it is. Sure, Saudis may be fighting ISIS and Iran - but all of them murder gays and oppress women. Perhaps we should make sure they all lose.

That is incredibly ignorant. The war between factions is a myth?

You do realize that ISIS probably kills ten or one hundred times more Muslims than they do non-Muslims, right?

You think that there is a war because some tens or hundreds of westerners, in aggregate, die each year in Islamic violence, but deny that there is a war between groups that see tens of thousands killed each year?

[Valmy]

Apparently it's the NRA who is waging a deadly Jihad here:

They might have a bit of a longstanding agenda here.

[derspiess]

For whatever it's worth, most Muslim guys I have met over the years seemed to be short-tempered Rage Monsters.  Dunno if rage is a mental illness, but it does seem to be a cultural trait of sorts.

Huh. What sort of Muslims are you meeting? The Turks I meet are almost serenely calm. To the point it almost makes me uneasy. Granted all the Muslims I meet are Turks who are Gulen types in exile which is very specific.

Come to think of it, the Turks that owned the diner I used to go to a lot in Delaware were pretty chill.  The ones that seemed a bit edgy were from Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Pakistan. 

[The Minsky Moment]

I fully agree with Otto here. And if Obama thinks what he does is what Americans want - well, Americans will have an opportunity to say if this is really the case by voting for Hillary to continue his policies in November.

I know you are for mass democracy now but be careful what you wish for. 
Gay marriage exists in this country because the courts overrode objections to it on constitutional grounds.  Most of the ballot initiatives went the other way.  Your new right wing buddies are happy to talk nice now about gays if it can be used to put down the Muslims.  But they will put the kinds of judges in place that voted with the dissent in Obergefell.

[The Minsky Moment]

I always have to check the spelling for Obergefell BTW - my brain always thinks of former Cardinal 3B Ken Oberkfell.  Figured derpiess would be amused.

[Phillip V]

Trump:  “If you had guns in that room, if you had—even if you had a number of people having them strapped to their ankle or strapped to their waist, where bullets could have flown in the other direction right at him, you wouldn’t have had the same kind of a tragedy.”


Idiot.

[derspiess]

I always have to check the spelling for Obergefell BTW - my brain always thinks of former Cardinal 3B Ken Oberkfell.  Figured derpiess would be amused.

I can still hear his name being announced at Riverfront Stadium when the Cardinals/Braves were in town.  "Now at bat-- Ken OBERKFELL.  OBERKFELL..."

[Valmy]

Trump:  "If you had guns in that room, if you had—even if you had a number of people having them strapped to their ankle or strapped to their waist, where bullets could have flown in the other direction right at him, you wouldn't have had the same kind of a tragedy."


Idiot.

It was in Florida so I would be surprised if nobody had a gun.

[mongers]

Perhaps, for the mentally unstable, Islam is just a gateway drug to more dangerous behaviour?

[Phillip V]

Trump:  “If you had guns in that room, if you had—even if you had a number of people having them strapped to their ankle or strapped to their waist, where bullets could have flown in the other direction right at him, you wouldn’t have had the same kind of a tragedy.”


Idiot.

It was in Florida so I would be surprised if nobody had a gun.

Does anybody have an image of what a typical drunk gay bar scene looks like at night.

[Barrister]

Trump:  "If you had guns in that room, if you had—even if you had a number of people having them strapped to their ankle or strapped to their waist, where bullets could have flown in the other direction right at him, you wouldn't have had the same kind of a tragedy."


Idiot.

It was in Florida so I would be surprised if nobody had a gun.

Really?  They allow firearms in nightclubs?

Wiki suggests that Florida has rather liberal concealed carry laws, but one of the exceptions is:

Any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Florida

Don't get me wrong - I think mixing firearms and alcohol is a terrible idea.  For every terrorist attack you might stop you'll have untold thousands of drunken yahoos shooting at each other.

[Zanza]

Trump:  "If you had guns in that room, if you had—even if you had a number of people having them strapped to their ankle or strapped to their waist, where bullets could have flown in the other direction right at him, you wouldn't have had the same kind of a tragedy."


Idiot.

I've obviously never been a comparable situation, but I imagine that even if I had a concealed handgun in a dark club at night, I would still flee and not fight back if someone starts shooting with a semi-automatic rifle and people left and right of me drop dead. Having the psychological strength to pull out a handgun and start a firefight with someone who has already started firing seems pretty daunting. I would imagine that's hard to do even for professionals like law enforcement officers or soldiers.

[viper37]

Cruz does not speak for the GOP Viper, he is very much his own nutty man.

ok.  I thought he was beating the drums of war for Trump, like the other GOPs.

[Berkut]

Trump:  “If you had guns in that room, if you had—even if you had a number of people having them strapped to their ankle or strapped to their waist, where bullets could have flown in the other direction right at him, you wouldn’t have had the same kind of a tragedy.”


Idiot.

I've obviously never been a comparable situation, but I imagine that even if I had a concealed handgun in a dark club at night, I would still flee and not fight back if someone starts shooting with a semi-automatic rifle and people left and right of me drop dead. Having the psychological strength to pull out a handgun and start a firefight with someone who has already started firing seems pretty daunting. I would imagine that's hard to do even for professionals like law enforcement officers or soldiers.

More to the point is that it just isn't going to work.

A handgun is a pretty shitty weapon for anything but very short range. Compared to an assault rifle, you are pretty fucked unless you can close the range up a bit without being seen.