Mass killing in Orlando gay nightclub

[OttoVonBismarck]

He's the President of the United States and sets the tone for a lot of things, there's a reason most of the mainstream left is focusing on idiocies like homophobia and gun control, which are frankly largely irrelevant in this specific instance.

[The Minsky Moment]

Ted Cruz has posted this:

Every human being has a right to live according to his or her faith and conscience, and nobody has a right to murder someone who doesn't share their faith or sexual orientation.

Read that statement carefully.  Everyone has a right to a faith and a conscience, and no one has the right to murder.  But he is very careful not to suggest that everyone has a right to express a particular sexual orientation.  Just the right not to be murdered for it.

With friends like these . . .

[viper37]

Yeah Viper there was a reason none of us responded to that hilariously silly comment by Marty. Assimilate into his French speaking community? What does that have to do with speaking English?

it's just like it's the 3rd or 4th time I see this comment in 2 weeks from different individuals, and I want to clarify things.
I don't live in a predominently english area, if I lived in Toronto or Montreal's west island, it'd be different.
I'm better than most people in my area at english, most folks are unilingual and those claiming to be bilingual struggle with reading Excel menus, but that doesn't mean I'm as fluent as someone living in the US, UK or Canada outside of Quebec. 

Languish is the only place I write in english, except to occasional request to a supplier for information on a product and I haven't been able to read a fucking book longer than a comic for the last 3 years.

[The Minsky Moment]

homophobia  . . .irrelevant in this specific instance.

[Valmy]

He's the President of the United States and sets the tone for a lot of things, there's a reason most of the mainstream left is focusing on idiocies like homophobia and gun control, which are frankly largely irrelevant in this specific instance.

I guess actions do not speak louder than words after all.

And yes he does set the tone for a lot of things. So him saying anti-Islamic things is likely to be very disastrous for our interests. Which is exactly what I was saying. As for the Mainstream left it is not like they are ever going to be other than what they are no matter what Obama says.

[Martinus]

Ted Cruz has posted this:

Every human being has a right to live according to his or her faith and conscience, and nobody has a right to murder someone who doesn't share their faith or sexual orientation.

Read that statement carefully.  Everyone has a right to a faith and a conscience, and no one has the right to murder.  But he is very careful not to suggest that everyone has a right to express a particular sexual orientation.  Just the right not to be murdered for it.

With friends like these . . .

I know and I read it carefully, noticing his hypocrisy and the way he worded this. He is not a friend, but it's better to have someone try to pray the gay away than someone try to slay the gay away.

[OttoVonBismarck]

And frankly Obama has been a foreign relations disaster, so the fact he judges something to be in our best interests is frankly of little relevance to whether it's a good idea.

[viper37]

And then do nothing about mental illness. I mean if you actually believe that wouldn't you be launching a campaign to help with mental illness?

Oh, I agree with you.
Even in Canada, it's pretty hard to see a psy, unless you seek one in the private sector.
Governments of the left and the right like to talk about it, but they really don't do much. 
It took a very long time for the Canadian army to adapt to this new reality, of Veterans with mental health issues.  It's like losing a leg was all glorious, but losing your mind made you a weakling.  I think it's only last year the army finally acknowledged there was a real problem, and then it was mostly suicides, not mass murders.

The rest of society like to talk about it, but the reality is, when you talk with people (I just had this conversation with a friend), it's not a real disease to them.  So why should politicians do something when the people don't really care?

[OttoVonBismarck]

He's the President of the United States and sets the tone for a lot of things, there's a reason most of the mainstream left is focusing on idiocies like homophobia and gun control, which are frankly largely irrelevant in this specific instance.

I guess actions do not speak louder than words after all.

And yes he does set the tone for a lot of things. So him saying anti-Islamic things is likely to be very disastrous for our interests. Which is exactly what I was saying. As for the Mainstream left it is not like they are ever going to be other than what they are no matter what Obama says.

I think the problem is you and people like you view it as "anti-Islamic" to condemn radical Islam. Yet no one has a problem blasting fundamentalist Christianity's radical beliefs.

[The Brain]

And frankly Obama has been a foreign relations disaster, so the fact he judges something to be in our best interests is frankly of little relevance to whether it's a good idea.

He won the Nobel Peace Prize.

[Martinus]

I fully agree with Otto here. And if Obama thinks what he does is what Americans want - well, Americans will have an opportunity to say if this is really the case by voting for Hillary to continue his policies in November.

[OttoVonBismarck]

And to be frank, I think coddling bad ideas is of questionable strategy at this point. While it would cause some inflamed tensions, I think the West should be more willing to denounce Islam as a religion. By being afraid to condemn ideas we disagree with, we tolerate acceptance of a lot of terrible things.

Now note--the President and other high ranking politicians do have diplomatic concerns, and I wouldn't want them broadly bashing Islam. But I think for ordinary citizens in the West, it shouldn't be seen as bigotry to bash a religion. I'm a Christian--I don't view it as bigotry when someone says I worship an imaginary sky fairy or any of the many other Christian criticisms that are levied against my faith on a daily basis. Christianity isn't a logical, provable belief, it's a faith. It can be criticized and a free society that criticism should be fully accepted and even encouraged.

For some reason we're at a place where criticizing Islam is now equated with racism (which is confusing to me since Islam isn't a race, if you think people hate Arabs or Pakistanis or Turks or whatever--say that.)

[OttoVonBismarck]

homophobia  . . .irrelevant in this specific instance.

To clarify--obviously hatred of gays is relevant here. What I meant when I typed that, is some among the left are blaming "America's intolerance toward gays", specifically from right wing social conservatives, for this shooting. While right wing gay bashing is reprehensible, as is any discrimination against gay people in America, I do not believe that had anything to do with Mateen's homophobia. I believe he simply bought into ISIS teachings on Islam, which clearly state that gays should be killed.

[The Brain]

Good thing the Bible doesn't.

[OttoVonBismarck]

I actually think for anyone in the West, the extreme intolerance for gays in Islam should be a major point of discussion--which isn't even an aspect of radical Islam; Mauritania, Sudan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Afghanistan all punish being gay with execution. Those countries in aggregate have over 200m people. Many more countries in the MENA region with majority Muslim populations criminalize homosexuality (but go short of executing over it.)

While I do not believe most MENA Muslims are Islamic radicals, or support terrorist attacks against civilians, I think most do absolutely believes gays should be jailed and many view being gay as a crime similar to how we view serious sex crimes here in the United States.