Mass killing in Orlando gay nightclub

[OttoVonBismarck]

He got some of his facts a bit wrong and he does seem a tad hypocritical but I never thought I'd say this but I agree with Ted Cruz more than I agree with Barrack Obama.

Barack Obama's drones have been murdering Islamic terrorists by the bushel for years. I do not understand why it is so important for him to spout off shit. He is the President and must make statements that help the US in pursuing its interests. Ted Cruz can go off like a nutter if he wants. Hell Dubya made those 'Axis of Evil' and 'With us or with the terrorists' statements that never specifically condemned Islam yet we paid a big diplomatic price for years.

Obama going off might make some people feel better but the US would pay a big price for them.

I'm sorry, what's the big price we would pay by acknowledging evil, terrorist Muslims are at war with us?

[Malthus]

No--we have to respond to attacks as attacks. We cannot allow the left to reclassify terrorist attacks as domestic "issues" that require national soul searching. This is no different from 9/11 or Pearl Harbor, and it's disgusting it isn't being recognized for what it is.

I'd say it is quite a bit different. In the case of Pearl Harbor, the responsibility could rightly be laid at the feet of a particular entity: the Empire of Japan. In the case of 9/11, it could be laid at the feet of a particular organization - and Afghanistan, for sheltering/harboring that organization. In both cases there were chances to retaliate against the organizers of the attacks.

With these "lone wolf" type attacks, who are we to hold responsible? Well, ISIS I guess, and I have no hesitation about putting more resources into crushing them, which would be a good thing for its own sake; but in some cases they had nothing to do with actually organizing the specific attacks.

[Valmy]

I'm sorry, what's the big price we would pay by acknowledging evil, terrorist Muslims are at war with us?

Things are not that simple and you know it. It would be a very bad thing for us if this ever got turned into a 'USA vs. Islam' type deal. The evil, terrorist Muslims would love that though.
'

[Martinus]

You guys got it all wrong - it's everyone's fault:

I Blame Hate
06/12/2016 07:37 pm ET | Updated 40 minutes ago

The homophobic and transphobic carnage in Orlando was a 'plane crash', with the blood and corpses of LGBTQ people splattered across the headlines. However, LGBTQ people are dying of hate, isolation, exclusion, and violence daily, in 'car crashes' that do not catch the public eye. Gay children are being bullied to death in our schools, trans women beaten to death on our streets, and the public does not bat an eye. After the Pulse nightclub massacre, there will be the customary vigils, speeches, and rainbow processions, vows of solidarity, and then the predictable return to business as usual. My heart is exploding with love and grief for those who have died and are dying, and it is also burning with anger at those who perpetrate, encourage, and enable these atrocities. I am left wondering, amid all the prayers and mourning, wherein lies the responsibility and who is to blame?

I blame Ted Cruz, Pat McCrory, and every single politician in America and around the world who has promoted fear and hatred against the LGBTQ community in attempt to garner more votes.

I blame all those legislators who have devoted countless time and resources to concocting homophobic and transphobic laws, while simultaneously thwarting legislative action aimed at protecting the LGBTQ community.

I blame every religious leader who has encouraged his faithful to be intolerant towards LGBTQ people and urged them to fight against our basic rights and dignities as human beings.

I blame every person who feels that their religion entitles them to be biased against LGBTQ people and to exclude us.

I blame every parent who has victimized and bullied transgender children in schools by attempting to deny transgender students their right to access facilities matching their authentic gender identity.

I blame everyone who has threatened transgender people with violence and murder simply for using facilities that match our authentic gender identity.

I blame all parents who have taught their children to be intolerant and unaccepting of LGBTQ people, and all those parents who have rejected and abused their own LGBTQ children.

I blame all those who seek to erase LGBTQ people because our existence makes them uncomfortable.

I blame all those who bully, intimidate, or harass LGBTQ people, and those adults who turn the other way when LGBTQ children are being mistreated.

I blame all those who think it is acceptable to mock and ridicule LGBTQ people, and those who dismiss attempts to end this bullying as 'political correctness'.

I blame law enforcement in America and around the world that erases LGBTQ people and does not take action to protect us, and in fact is often the worst perpetrator of abuse and violence against us.

I blame every court, judge, and jury that has acquitted or given a token sentence to perpetrators of hate crimes against us, because of the 'gay panic' defense or simply because in their eyes our existence is worthy of violence.

I blame hate groups and terror groups like the American Family Association, the Ku Klux Klan, and ISIS.

I blame all those who have amicable dealings with regimes under which being LGBTQ is considered an offense punishable by death.

I blame all those who stand in silence as LGBTQ people are attacked, abused, murdered, and denied our human rights, because they do not think it is their problem or because they are embarrassed to speak up for us.

All of them have blood on their hands, not just in Orlando now, but everywhere every day. Scores of our people were murdered in cold blood in the worst mass shooting in our nation's history, but this is just the tip of the iceberg. We are assaulted, raped, and murdered around the world with impunity. Our children are thrown out of their homes and disowned by their families simply for being themselves. Surely, our lives matter enough that those who are destroying us should be named and held accountable. Please spare us your speeches, your candles, and your prayers, and give us our right to breathe. And please do not drown out our right to love and exist authentically with hate.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mischa-haider/i-blame-hate_b_10431484.html

[Valmy]

Yep. We are paying for our sins.

[OttoVonBismarck]

No--we have to respond to attacks as attacks. We cannot allow the left to reclassify terrorist attacks as domestic "issues" that require national soul searching. This is no different from 9/11 or Pearl Harbor, and it's disgusting it isn't being recognized for what it is.

I'd say it is quite a bit different. In the case of Pearl Harbor, the responsibility could rightly be laid at the feet of a particular entity: the Empire of Japan. In the case of 9/11, it could be laid at the feet of a particular organization - and Afghanistan, for sheltering/harboring that organization. In both cases there were chances to retaliate against the organizers of the attacks.

With these "lone wolf" type attacks, who are we to hold responsible? Well, ISIS I guess, and I have no hesitation about putting more resources into crushing them, which would be a good thing for its own sake; but in some cases they had nothing to do with actually organizing the specific attacks.

That's been terrorism since the last 90s, al-Qaeda has been around so long specifically because it's a decentralized non-state entity. ISIS isn't materially any different. There is more of a focus now on encouraging lone wolf attacks than the old approach of very small independent cells. But functionally it's not different. To me it isn't material that there isn't some guy sitting in Mosul who planned the attack, what's important is people are buying into this ideology of militant fanaticism and killing people over it.

For that reason it is weird to me we don't call it out for what it is, and it's weird we have hesitance to acknowledge when we've been attacked.

[viper37]

MASS shootings.

We have established already few days ago that viper, despite being a Canadian, has a really poor grasp of English. If he has not assimilated by now, I hope they deport him to France.

My mother tongue is French and I live in a 98% predominently french speaking area.  I speak French everyday at work, my only contacts with english are on the internet and tv shows.  I speak English once in a while, and the last time I engaged in a meaningful oral conversation in English, I was enjoying a drink with Garbon during his visit of Quebec city.  Come to think of it, the last two times before that, I was meeting Sav and Yi.  I don't travel much anymore, and it's usually to meet relatives who speak mostly French.

[Valmy]

Yeah Viper there was a reason none of us responded to that hilariously silly comment by Marty. Assimilate into his French speaking community? What does that have to do with speaking English?

[OttoVonBismarck]

I'm sorry, what's the big price we would pay by acknowledging evil, terrorist Muslims are at war with us?

Things are not that simple and you know it. It would be a very bad thing for us if this ever got turned into a 'USA vs. Islam' type deal. The evil, terrorist Muslims would love that though.
'

The ship sailed on that ages ago. When we decided to support Israel. For the type of Muslims willing to kill people over religion that has made it us versus Islam all along. More rational Muslims look at the many billions of dollars in aid, the arms sales, and political support we've given to many Muslim countries over the years (Turkey, Egypt, Afghanistan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, etc) and understand it isn't that. But the guys willing to do these attacks are so far off the beaten path that it's kind of comical to fear we're making it about us versus Islam. That's why they are fighting, is because they genuinely believe Islam is at war and America has to be attacked to protect their faith.

[Valmy]

For that reason it is weird to me we don't call it out for what it is, and it's weird we have hesitance to acknowledge when we've been attacked.

I am pretty sure we can safely call out ISIS and AQ and have done so.

[viper37]

He got some of his facts a bit wrong and he does seem a tad hypocritical but I never thought I'd say this but I agree with Ted Cruz more than I agree with Barrack Obama.

Barack Obama's drones have been murdering Islamic terrorists by the bushel for years. I do not understand why it is so important for him to spout off shit. He is the President and must make statements that help the US in pursuing its interests. Ted Cruz can go off like a nutter if he wants. Hell Dubya made those 'Axis of Evil' and 'With us or with the terrorists' statements that never specifically condemned Islam yet we paid a big diplomatic price for years.

Obama going off might make some people feel better but the US would pay a big price for them.

I'm sorry, what's the big price we would pay by acknowledging evil, terrorist Muslims are at war with us?

You mean like in 2014?
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/isis-terror/obama-administration-says-u-s-war-isis-n202336

Going more than that would be difficult for a State.  A war against what exactly?  A War on Terror?  How did that go for you?  From speech to practical actions?

[Martinus]

I'm sorry, what's the big price we would pay by acknowledging evil, terrorist Muslims are at war with us?

Things are not that simple and you know it. It would be a very bad thing for us if this ever got turned into a 'USA vs. Islam' type deal. The evil, terrorist Muslims would love that though.

I agree that we shouldn't cave in to terrorists' demands, but I am kinda tired of that bullshit logic that we should not do something because "this is what terrorists want".

By the way, we should also stop talking about this being only about "terrorist Muslims" - it may not be about all Muslims, I will give you that, but our enemies in this war are much broader than just terrorists - it's the people who cheer on when gay people are being hurled to their deaths, it's the people who think it is appropriate to punish apostasy with death, it's the people who support honour killings.

And that's why I think it is important to send a clear message - a message to all Muslims everywhere that you will either disavow and oppose atrocities committed in the name of your religion or you are the enemy. And if you are the enemy you will be destroyed.

[Valmy]

The ship sailed on that ages ago

No it hasn't. We have diplomatic relations with those countries to consider.

When we decided to support Israel. For the type of Muslims willing to kill people over religion that has made it us versus Islam all along. More rational Muslims look at the many billions of dollars in aid, the arms sales, and political support we've given to many Muslim countries over the years (Turkey, Egypt, Afghanistan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, etc) and understand it isn't that. But the guys willing to do these attacks are so far off the beaten path that it's kind of comical to fear we're making it about us versus Islam. That's why they are fighting, is because they genuinely believe Islam is at war and America has to be attacked to protect their faith.

Exactly. So why help those dudes with their political objectives and undermine ours? And no it is not comical, it is the truth. We don't give a damn if people are muslims or not. That is just a fact. We could not care less about Islam much less want to fight a war against it.

[OttoVonBismarck]

I honestly don't know what you're talking about. Those countries are our allies in fights against radical Islamism. I would actually wager guys like Sisi and Erdogan have actually (in the Turkish / Arabic equivalent language) condemned Islamic radicalism.

The idea that Obama almost comedically refuses to do so, and represents broadly the messaging consensus of the left, remains inexplicable to me.

[Valmy]

I honestly don't know what you're talking about. Those countries are our allies in fights against radical Islamism. I would actually wager guys like Sisi and Erdogan have actually (in the Turkish / Arabic equivalent language) condemned Islamic radicalism.

The idea that Obama almost comedically refuses to do so, and represents broadly the messaging consensus of the left, remains inexplicable to me.

It is quite explicable. He considers it in our best interests to not do so. Frankly when his drones are killing these guys what difference does it make?