Gay sauna in Luton, UK not extended a license: too close to a mosque

[Jacob]

Possibly, but I think there's a difference between a business closing due to lack of demand and being forced to close due to political/religious pressure. I'm sorry if you don't see the difference or consider it to be relevant.

And there's a difference between a business being forced to close due to political/religious pressure and a business being denied a license to expand into a different business because it's deemed not to fit the neighbourhood character. The second may be immoral and all, but it happens pretty damn frequently in all sorts of places and few people bat an eye. You try opening a porn-shop near a church in most places in America, and see how likely you are to be granted the necessary permits; and see if adding strippers to your bar is going to pass permitting if there's a concerned church or school nearby.

[Richard Hakluyt]

This is an interesting thread. We've talked before about how planning restrictions have helped to inflate house prices here in the UK, but we haven't discussed (till now) their effects on businesses, home improvements and so on. It is not the case that only gay saunas, sex shops or whatever are targeted by prudes; just about any change requires planning permission and the other folk in the local community have their chance to object. Over the years I have seen huge battles erupt over trees, shrubs, large sheds or even just the colour a house is painted.

This all seems natural to me; what other people do with their property also impacts nearby people and their properties, it only seems right that there is some sort of procedure for deciding whether or not a change can go through. I'm surprised that controversy has broken out over this (as a general principle that is, clearly it is very easy for an individual planning decision to be controversial).

[Admiral Yi]

Neighbors don't have any say over what you do to your property in the US unless you are part of an infamous Homeowners' Association.

[Berkut]

The parts quoted from the petition/letters make it sound like the Mooslimbs object not so much to porn and sex, but the fact that it was related to homosexuality though.

So? Is it extra objectionable because they object to the kind of sex you like as opposed to the kind of sex they like?

This is such a mountain out of a molehill.

Who cares? So we find out that in a given population there are a bunch of prudes. Shocking! Who would have thought it!

Because they are launching political activities to make life difficult for other people for no particular reason?

There are very particular reasons, actually. They don't want a sex shop in their neighborhood.

Is it 'nobody cares' when the fundies over here shut down sex education programs to you?

You think there is some kind of relevant similarity between sex education in schools and private business zoning of sex shops???

I just do not get it you have even gone after me for my religious beliefs and I am not out doing stuff like this. What made you so tolerant now concerning something that typifies why they create problems.

Tolerant? Tolerant of what?

Tolerant of people right to express their opinions about zoning and lincensing in their neighborhoods?

Is that really surprising to you that I would look at a story like this and think "Yawn".

[Richard Hakluyt]

Neighbors don't have any say over what you do to your property in the US unless you are part of an infamous Homeowners' Association.

Mere anarchy, sir.......Godless, republican anarchy 

[Richard Hakluyt]

Neighbors don't have any say over what you do to your property in the US unless you are part of an infamous Homeowners' Association.

It would clearly be less of an issue with detached houses on large plots in new suburbs. What happens in the historic districts of (eg) New York City though?

[LaCroix]

So it's immoral not to want felons in your neighborhood, where they will increase the crime rate and drive down property value?

I think the immorality comments derive from the fact that nobody necessarily knows with certainty that felons, addicts, etc. will increase the crime rate and drive down property value. but, I don't think it's "immoral" to fear that inviting perceived scum into the neighborhood will bring about a bad result

[Admiral Yi]

It would clearly be less of an issue with detached houses on large plots in new suburbs. What happens in the historic districts of (eg) New York City though?

Then you have to suck dick at the Historic Preservation Whatever, but I still don't think neighbors have any say.

[Gups]

This is an interesting thread. We've talked before about how planning restrictions have helped to inflate house prices here in the UK, but we haven't discussed (till now) their effects on businesses, home improvements and so on. It is not the case that only gay saunas, sex shops or whatever are targeted by prudes; just about any change requires planning permission and the other folk in the local community have their chance to object. Over the years I have seen huge battles erupt over trees, shrubs, large sheds or even just the colour a house is painted.

This all seems natural to me; what other people do with their property also impacts nearby people and their properties, it only seems right that there is some sort of procedure for deciding whether or not a change can go through. I'm surprised that controversy has broken out over this (as a general principle that is, clearly it is very easy for an individual planning decision to be controversial).

This was a license application rather than a planning one, but I agree generally.

In the UK we have a plan led system. Planning authorities publish their planning policy. Applications for development should be in accordance with that policy. If so, then they are entitled to permission. Neighbours and other stakeholders are consulted but the only representations that can legitimately be taken into account are ones which are based on policy.

Because the decisions are made by local politicians, practice and theory don't always marry and a campaign against an application can succeed even if it has policy support. Hence there are quite a lot of appeals on unpopular schemes - these are decided by a professional inspector following a public inquiry.

There are lots of problems with our planning system but consultation is not one of them. Development is vastly better than it was in the 1950s-80s when developers and local authorities pretty much ignored what local had to say.

[Capetan Mihali]

Neighbors don't have any say over what you do to your property in the US unless you are part of an infamous Homeowners' Association.

You've never the big signs at empty lots or proposed rehauld of existing buildings inviting "Notice and Comment" on the part of the city or zoning board to get neighbor input before it's granted?  Not to mention the power of neighborhood petitions.

[garbon]

Neighbors don't have any say over what you do to your property in the US unless you are part of an infamous Homeowners' Association.

I don't think that's entirely true. When I was in New York, I got notifications all the time about new applications for alcohol licensing and were invited to attend community meetings to voice our opinions.

[celedhring]

In Spain neighbors have a "public exposition" period where they can voice their opinion before a rezoning or property redevelopment permission is granted. It is non-binding and it doesn't extent to business permits, though.

[Berkut]

Yeah, it varies widely in the US, of course.

But in general local municipalities tend to have zoning laws that limit what kinds of businesses can go where, and nearly all business have some kind of licensing requirements that have to be met.

Which is why you sometimes get these really bizarre pockets and patterns of businesses that don't seem to make much sense.

Like the rather ridiculous number of adult bookstores along US-15 in Pennsylvania. We drive that road a couple times a year going from Rochester to my sisters in Virginia. I have no idea what demand there is for something like 15 adult bookstores along a couple hundred miles of road through central PA.

[Capetan Mihali]

I have no idea what demand there is for something like 15 adult bookstores along a couple hundred miles of road through central PA.

Truckers.

[Berkut]

I have no idea what demand there is for something like 15 adult bookstores along a couple hundred miles of road through central PA.

Truckers.

Nah, the road is actually not even an interstate mostly, and there isn't a lot of heavy truck traffic.