More Americans Are Getting Evicted Than Ever Before

[LaCroix]

I guess it could drive up attorney costs for the landlord, assuming public defenders would do their damnedest to delay the eviction. an increase in litigation costs could help prevent evictions in some cases. but, wouldn't this hurt everyone? landlords now have to pay extra $ to fight (potentially) lengthier court battles with stubborn delinquent tenants, which I'm sure would trickle down and screw a lot of innocent tenants over because landlords might be less likely to rent to poor tenants.

[Capetan Mihali]

Yeah, let's deny people adequate representation to save landlords money on their legal fees.   Evictions, like foreclosures, are a two-way street.

[Capetan Mihali]

Yeah, I wouldn't guess most (all?) eviction hearings involve intricate legal issues. 

"You're 90 days late on rent."

"My client is very sorry your honor and promises to do better."

I don't use that smiley hardly at all, but I really did laugh -- that was the basic dialogue in hundreds of misdemeanor guilty pleas and probation violation admissions that I did.  But we still appoint them attorneys.  And you know, it still helps to have a guy in a suit with you who can say words like "your honor" and "deeply sorry," rather than just letting the tenant go on a rant that hurts his interests and makes the judge dislike him.  Without their own lawyers, a lot of landlords would be likely to do the same.

And setting up things like payment plans based on income are actually something a little sophisticated that a lawyer can help with.  Like if the judge says, "OK counsel your client reports $2200 monthly income, we'll have him pay $450 a month in arrears plus keep up with his current rent and come back in 60 days and see where we're at, alright?" 

The client might just be cowed into saying "Yeah, OK, sure, thank you" then proceeding to fuck it up again and actually get evicted.  A lot of people are scared in court, not just criminal court, for good reason.  But the lawyer might say instead "Well your honor, my client does take home $1100 biweekly after taxes, but he has two children who don't live with him, and he pays $600 monthly for their upkeep, so his effective income is really $1600 monthly."  "Fine, $250 a month in arrears.  But he better he keep up with his current rent!"  "Certainly, your honor."

[LaCroix]

Yeah, let's deny people adequate representation to save landlords money on their legal fees.   Evictions, like foreclosures, are a two-way street.

I'm saying that landlords having to pay potentially grossly more legal feels with potentially every eviction would change landlord policy, and I don't think the outcome would benefit tenants in the long run

[Capetan Mihali]

I think the more likely result is that landlords would just be less likely to institute eviction proceedings in court if they couldn't use the very fact of the legal system itself as an enormous cudgel over the tenant.  And that landlord-tenant disputes would be worked out, within and outside the legal system, on a more equitable basis.

You can describe the parade of horribles resulting from giving poor people some of the same legal representation as rich people, but there's a problem of fundamental fairness -- in more than just landlord-tenant cases -- at the heart of the issue, which can't be buried under this or that hypothetical consequence.

[Razgovory]

Try to find the average number of minutes spent per client for appointed cases, while you're looking for statistics.  Indigent representation in criminal court is an open disgrace, and all those lawyers *already* have to be appointed in any family court case where DCF wants to take custody of a child in any way (not just physical custody).

The county PD office is begging the legislature for more funds.  Chance of getting said funds, zero.

[Capetan Mihali]

Try to find the average number of minutes spent per client for appointed cases, while you're looking for statistics.  Indigent representation in criminal court is an open disgrace, and all those lawyers *already* have to be appointed in any family court case where DCF wants to take custody of a child in any way (not just physical custody).

The county PD office is begging the legislature for more funds.  Chance of getting said funds, zero.

  Missouri's public defense system is a mess.  These things vary so much state by state, and even county by county.  Colorado and Montana are both well-regarded, but not Idaho or Wyoming.  Tennessee and Alabama are also decent to my knowledge, but Mississippi and Louisiana are nightmarish.  When I was in New England, Rhode Island and New Hampshire were the good ones, while Maine and Massachusetts were the bad ones.

And I know St. Louis County's is particularly bad even by Missouri standards, and that you're better off getting charged in the city or way out in the sticks.  Call your legislator.

[Razgovory]

They have to pool 200 jurors before they find 12 that'll won't immediately say the person is guilty simply because they are on trial.  The idea of leveling the playing field between the prosecutor's office and the public defender's office, even a little bit, is seen as disrespectful to the family of the victim.  They held a guy for six years down in Miller county (the county a little to the south of me), without trial and with any trial date even set.  When the judge cried foul and released the guy people wanted to impeach her.  A guy in St. Louis was released after 20 years because it was found the police beat a confession out of him.  People were complaining that this horrible person was released because the police made a mistake.  A mistake is when the police screw up the chain of evidence.  You don't mistakenly beat a confession out of a guy.  And again, think of the family of the victim.


We have a shit highway system because nobody wants to pay taxes.  Missouri couldn't even get federal matching funds.  Still, that makes some sense.  You get a shit highway system because you don't want to pay for a decent one.  We have a shit justice system because people here want a shit legal system.

[LaCroix]

I think the more likely result is that landlords would just be less likely to institute eviction proceedings in court if they couldn't use the very fact of the legal system itself as an enormous cudgel over the tenant.  And that landlord-tenant disputes would be worked out, within and outside the legal system, on a more equitable basis.

You can describe the parade of horribles resulting from giving poor people some of the same legal representation as rich people, but there's a problem of fundamental fairness -- in more than just landlord-tenant cases -- at the heart of the issue, which can't be buried under this or that hypothetical consequence.

there's a real possibility that low-incoming (shit apartments, not government subsidized) renting to those without government assistance might evaporate under this plan. wouldn't make it worth the risk of costly legal battles for with potentially every single delinquent tenant.

should there be a guaranteed fundamental fairness in private matters?

[Martinus]

Wow, Mihali must be the craziest person we currently have on Languish. Even Raz is more reasonable.

[Martinus]

Yeah, I wouldn't guess most (all?) eviction hearings involve intricate legal issues. 

"You're 90 days late on rent."

"My client is very sorry your honor and promises to do better."

This. It's not a criminal trial, it's simply a matter of establishing whether the rent was paid or not. Even in Poland, where state-appointed legal representation is common one would normally not get it in a case like this.

[Martinus]

We manage to give Israel $3 billion a year in military aid, so I have no reason to think a couple billion a year to ensure adequate representation for Americans in court would be a fiscal problem.

I knew it was all Malthus's fault. I hope he frenzies in this thread like he did in the other.

[Razgovory]

Wow, Mihali must be the craziest person we currently have on Languish. Even Raz is more reasonable.

I was thinking of a doing a Poll on who is the craziest.

Martinus:  Delusions, believes he is a sociopath.

[Admiral Yi]

The client might just be cowed into saying "Yeah, OK, sure, thank you" then proceeding to fuck it up again and actually get evicted.  A lot of people are scared in court, not just criminal court, for good reason.  But the lawyer might say instead "Well your honor, my client does take home $1100 biweekly after taxes, but he has two children who don't live with him, and he pays $600 monthly for their upkeep, so his effective income is really $1600 monthly."  "Fine, $250 a month in arrears.  But he better he keep up with his current rent!"  "Certainly, your honor."

How often do evictees get a work out plan?  Is it there for the asking?

[garbon]

Wow, Mihali must be the craziest person we currently have on Languish. Even Raz is more reasonable.

He has taken a deep dive in the last few days.