Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Barrister]

Beeb, no one outside of Canada knows what a scrutineer is.

It's a perfectly cromulent word.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scrutineer

So I've done this before, though not for a long time.  First of all you have multiple people who are paid Elections employees who count the votes.  And while you don't exactly have someone standing over everyone's shoulder, it's all done out in the open so you could easily see someone working away with an eraser.

But second of all the political parties are allowed to have observers -, "scrutineers" you might call them, who watch the entire process.  YOu have the right to challenge any vote if you think it hasn't been counted correctly.  It then gets put in a separate box or something to be deal with later.

[Admiral Yi]

I'm as likely to use scrutineer as I am to use parkade.

[Sheilbh]

Jos, I mean you do you of course.  I'm not trying to force you to vote in person.

But it is a special kind of experience you should try at least once.

And I've never heard anyone say pencils are suspect.  You know there are scrutineers right?  You can't get someone with an eraser frantically changing votes...

I like voting in person.

And yes on pencils. I first saw the #bringpens from cybernats to prevent MI5 from rigging the indy referendum. It was then picked up by Leavers on the day of the Brexit referendum, until the results came in when it switched

I see one analyst has already called this the Leeroy Jenkins election - one for the kids.

But second of all the political parties are allowed to have observers -, "scrutineers" you might call them, who watch the entire process.  YOu have the right to challenge any vote if you think it hasn't been counted correctly.  It then gets put in a separate box or something to be deal with later.

Yeah I knew what you meant. I think they're party agents or observers here, plus official observers and sometimes media. And the returning officer (running the count) and counters are normally local council employees - so you'd need one hell of a conspiracy

[Jacob]

I'm as likely to use scrutineer as I am to use parkade.

Hopefully not for the same purpose

[Sheilbh]

British news    "we repeat: there is NO prime ministerial crest on the stand, this CONFIRMS it's an election announcement"

So on this - it's because it's a party political announcement so not made as PM (or entitled to use the PM's crest). Similarly for why it's outside - you're not allowed to use government buildings to make a political speech, so the compromise has developed of making the announcement on the street (although previous PMs did it from their party HQs).

You'll also see it occasionally when ministers speeches are posted online by the civil service and they get redacted for political content - in an extreme example down to basically a one pager But the full speech will be posted on the party's site.

And we'll be heading into purdah now so an even sharper distinction will be drawn (and the civil service started talking with Starmer's team - and I believe the Lib Dems - about 6-12 months ago to potentially prepare for them winning, which was authorised by Sunak).

[Admiral Yi]

Hopefully not for the same purpose

Absolutely not.  I will never use either for completely different purposes.

[Tamas]

Ok if we say pencils don't matter. Why pencils then? Why not pen? The only difference between the two is that whatever the chance of cheating with a pen-marked vote, the pencil one's chance is higher.

It's one of those things where the only reason it is not abused is because nobody seriously want to abuse it, or at least we assume so. While "nobody will bother to cheat so we won't bother to prevent it" is a decent general guiding principle for organising a civilised country like the UK, in this particular case the very fact that pencils are insisted on make me suspicious because the effort of providing a pencil might actually be higher than doing so with a pen.

[Sheilbh]

I mean you don't have to use a pencil, it's just that's what's provided. They're not insisted on, you're welcome to bring your own pen.

But from the Electoral Commission (I suspect the answer is probably cost):

The reason that pencils are traditionally used is partly for historical and practical reasons: with ink pens there is always a risk that they may dry out or spill. Also, ink may cause some transfer of the mark the voter has made on the ballot paper when they fold it, thus potentially leading to a rejection as it may look like they have voted for more options than they are entitled to.

On potential conspiracies/trust - votes weren't counted in the 1945 election for three weeks as it took that long for all the service personnel votes to arrive back in the UK. So everyone voted and then the locked ballot boxes were stored - sometimes with special police guard - for three weeks before they were opened and counted with the service vote.

[Josquius]

I first remember hearing pencil conspiracies amongst the stream of shit in 2016.
I wonder if it is so recent or if nutters have been muttering It in their isolated corners long before this

[Sheilbh]

I think it's recent. That from the Electoral Commission was in their media pack in 2017 as it hadn't previously been an issue - although, as I say, it definitely had in Scotland.

[Tamas]

IIRC in Hungary you must use a pen.

[crazy canuck]

I mean you don't have to use a pencil, it's just that's what's provided. They're not insisted on, you're welcome to bring your own pen.

But from the Electoral Commission (I suspect the answer is probably cost):

The reason that pencils are traditionally used is partly for historical and practical reasons: with ink pens there is always a risk that they may dry out or spill. Also, ink may cause some transfer of the mark the voter has made on the ballot paper when they fold it, thus potentially leading to a rejection as it may look like they have voted for more options than they are entitled to.

On potential conspiracies/trust - votes weren't counted in the 1945 election for three weeks as it took that long for all the service personnel votes to arrive back in the UK. So everyone voted and then the locked ballot boxes were stored - sometimes with special police guard - for three weeks before they were opened and counted with the service vote.

There used to be more stringent (I apologize to Yi for using a big word) rules for marking a ballot. For example, no going over the edges. And so pencils were more. These days the rules are much more relaxed, and so the same level of precision is no longer required.

Also I don't think the youngins realize how messy ink was just a short time ago.

[Tamas]

Short time ago?

[crazy canuck]

Short time ago?

Yes.  It was not just fountain pens that were messy.  Even today some pens can be messy but the problem is not as marked as it once was.

Btw, when was the last time you wrote something of any length using a pen?

[Josquius]

Short time ago?

Yes.  It was not just fountain pens that were messy.  Even today some pens can be messy but the problem is not as marked as it once was.

Btw, when was the last time you wrote something of any length using a pen?

Every day for me. Decent pens tend to leak through the page and pencils allow for more precision if you need to draw something.

IIRC in Hungary you must use a pen.

If it makes you feel any better in postal votes you have to use a pen?
I think they dictate a colour as well.