Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[alfred russel]

Watching the debate and I'm not sure. Sunak is talking over and interrupting Truss a lot - but I think is also making by far the better points. My suspicion is it's coming across badly though - but I'm not sure

I lost faith in democracy in 2000, after the first bush/gore debate...i thought gore thoroughly demolished bush, and gore would coast to the presidency if bush didn't do spectacularly in the next two debates, but then i saw that consensus was that bush won the debate because gore seemed like a know it all.

[Josquius]

Wasted potential 100% sums up my thoughts about the UK. We have so many natural advantages we should be up there with the rest of the north sea countries on quality of life, no reason why not top of the pack on some measures.

But compare the UK to the rest of North Europe and one notable point of difference stands out as a negative pull that explains why the UK is a shit hole whilst the world looks at Holland, Sweden and Co with envy... Tories.

[The Larch]

Is Boris having second thoughts about resigning?

Peer claims Boris Johnson said he does not want to resign as Prime Minister
Lord Cruddas of Shoreditch claims the PM told him he 'wants to fight the next general election as leader of the party'

A former Conservative Party treasurer campaigning to keep Boris Johnson in office has told The Telegraph that the Prime Minister "does not want to resign".

Over lunch at Chequers on Friday, Lord Cruddas of Shoreditch claimed that Mr Johnson told him he "wants to fight the next general election as leader of the party".

The peer said the pair discussed the "bring back Boris" campaign calling for a second vote among Tory grassroots to confirm whether they accept Mr Johnson's resignation.

In just seven days, more than 10,000 party members have backed the campaign for a poll to confirm the decision by Tory MPs' to force him out.

However, the claims were denied on Monday night by a senior Conservative source.

They said: "The PM does not support this campaign and respects the process of the leadership election. He does not support any campaign to put him on the leadership ballot and will back whoever is the next leader."

Lord Cruddas claimed Mr Johnson had told him he was "enjoying following" his petition and "rooting for your campaign to succeed".

He added: "There was no ambiguity in Boris's views. He definitely does not want to resign. He wants to carry on and he believes that, with the membership behind him, he can."

The claims could be raised at Monday night's first head-to-head BBC television leadership debate between Rishi Sunak and Liz Truss, as the battle to succeed Mr Johnson in 10 Downing Street hots up.

There appears to be significant support among the party's membership against the Tory MPs who forced him out earlier this month.

It raises the possibility that more members might vote to sign the petition to keep Mr Johnson than vote for either Mr Sunak or Ms Truss in the leadership election.

Conservative members have been signing the petition calling for a confirmatory vote on the MPs' decision to oust Mr Johnson at a rate of nearly 2,000 a day since it was launched last week.

Anyone who signs the petition is asked to hand over their membership number when they sign up. Lord Cruddas said that fake membership numbers are quickly found and their names are not counted.

The names are being sent to Andrew Stephenson, the chairman at Conservative Campaign Headquarters in Westminster.

Lord Cruddas told The Telegraph how Mr Johnson had personally invited him to lunch last Friday.

The pair dined alone, although Mr Johnson's wife Carrie arrived half an hour before Lord Cruddas left, carrying their baby daughter Romy in her arms and accompanied by the Johnsons' son, Wilf.

Over lunch, Lord Cruddas said: "Boris thanked me for my 'Boris on the ballot' campaign. He said he was enjoying following it and he wished me well.

"He said he could understand the membership's anger at what had happened. He said that he wished that he could carry on as Prime Minister. He said he does not want to resign."

Asked by the peer if he would "wipe away" his resignation immediately with "a magic wand", Mr Johnson reportedly replied: "I would wipe away everything that stops me being PM in a second."

Lord Cruddas said Mr Johnson wanted to carry on to deliver for the 14 million people who voted Conservative in 2019.

He said: "He wants to carry on to finish the job. He wants to fight the next general election as leader of the Conservative Party."

Lord Cruddas added: "He also said that if there was a general election tomorrow and he was leader of the Conservative Party, he would win a general election, and I agreed with him.

"He has taken inspiration from my campaign. He hopes that there will be a way for him to stay on as Prime Minister and he believes that the Conservative Party will be making a big mistake if they ignore the wishes of its membership."

Responding to Lord Cruddas's comments, a No 10 spokesman told The Telegraph: "The Prime Minister has resigned as party leader and set out his intention to stand down as PM when the new leader is in place."

[Sheilbh]

Is Boris having second thoughts about resigning?

Almost certainly, but it makes no difference. He has resigned as Tory leader.

Although it does sound like a boozy lunch with a very friendly lord in which Johnson basically agreed with what he was saying and added that says he wish things had gone differently - eg "Asked by the peer if he would "wipe away" his resignation immediately with "a magic wand", Mr Johnson reportedly replied: "I would wipe away everything that stops me being PM in a second.""

[Sheilbh]

I lost faith in democracy in 2000, after the first bush/gore debate...i thought gore thoroughly demolished bush, and gore would coast to the presidency if bush didn't do spectacularly in the next two debates, but then i saw that consensus was that bush won the debate because gore seemed like a know it all.

Oh I'd never lose faith

I think Sunak won pretty convincingly - but I think he also possibly spoke for about twice the length of time that Truss did because he interrupted so much. So, no doubt, the polls will show massive support for Truss.

Edit: And just seconds after Truss said she hoped Sunak would "be part of my team" if she wins:

Steven Swinford
@Steven_Swinford
A spokesman for Liz Truss claims that Rishi Sunak is not fit for office:

'Rishi Sunak has tonight proven he is not fit for office

'His aggressive mansplaining and shouty private school behaviour is desperate, unbecoming and is a gift to Labour'

I can't help but suspect that a Tory candidate attacking another for mansplaining and "shouty private school behaviour" is also a "gift to Labour"... (And might go down badly among Tory members who are older, whiter and maler than the general population - people who'll find the word "mansplaining"  quite triggering I think).

[HVC]

Could he join the election campaign and battle truss and sunak?

[Sheilbh]

Could he join the election campaign and battle truss and sunak?

No. Again this is an area the Tories have sensible rules. If a party leader resigns or loses a vote of confidence they are not allowed to run in the subsequent leadership election.

It's not like in Labour where over 80% of the MPs voted no confidence in Corbyn, but he was still able to run in the leadership election and increase his vote among the members

Incidentally I think the debate format was pretty good - pretty vague questions and lots of space for them to scrap, plus some more detailed follow-ons from the BBC politic and economics editors.

[The Minsky Moment]

I can't help but suspect that a Tory candidate attacking another for mansplaining and "shouty private school behaviour" is also a "gift to Labour"... (And might go down badly among Tory members who are older, whiter and maler than the general population - people who'll find the word "mansplaining"  quite triggering I think).

And to be fair to the Tory fogeys, if your plan is join the world stage with the likes of Macron, Scholtz, Orban, Putin, or (God Help Us) Ron DeSantis, you better install stronger mansplaining defenses pronto.  Sunak is strictly JV in comparison

[HVC]

Next election it is!  Boris seems the type to try again. And I'm sure he'll be up for another wedding in a few years

[Sheilbh]

Next election it is!  Boris seems the type to try again. And I'm sure he'll be up for another wedding in a few years

Yeah I wouldn't bet against it. And - at the risk of incurring Tamas and Garbon's ire - that's Dominic Cummings' theory that Johnson has backed Truss not just to stop Sunak but because he knows she'll be a disaster and there'll be another leadership election for him to go for.

Edit: And yeah - looks like a pretty decent night for Truss:

[Josquius]

Would definitely play into his fantasies of being Churchill II as well. And with the cult of brexit always there he has the support to remain an annoyance at least for years to come.

[Tamas]

Is Boris having second thoughts about resigning?

Almost certainly, but it makes no difference. He has resigned as Tory leader.

Although it does sound like a boozy lunch with a very friendly lord in which Johnson basically agreed with what he was saying and added that says he wish things had gone differently - eg "Asked by the peer if he would "wipe away" his resignation immediately with "a magic wand", Mr Johnson reportedly replied: "I would wipe away everything that stops me being PM in a second.""

Yeah its my impression as well.



But why would anyone not a party member bother with the debates why is it even on the telly? Why do we pretend the country has a say in this? There are more views on cat videos than how many of us get to decide who the next PM will be.

[Sheilbh]

Would definitely play into his fantasies of being Churchill II as well. And with the cult of brexit always there he has the support to remain an annoyance at least for years to come.

To an extent - I think the Brexit wars are over. By the end he only had the support of 60 MPs and over 50% of Tory members wanted him gone while around 30% wanted him to stay.

I think he is vastly overestimating the extent to which there'll be an appetite for his return - not least because the right-wing press (his true base/constituency) is trying to push this "stab in the back" narrative about Sunak/the party. I suspect if he tries a comeback he'll just be humiliated.

But why would anyone not a party member bother with the debates why is it even on the telly? Why do we pretend the country has a say in this? There are more views on cat videos than how many of us get to decide who the next PM will be.

Interest in who'll be the next PM.

You're right - but only two of the fifteen (now sixteen) PMs since the war have both entered and left office through a general election. Those other PMs were chosen by even fewer people - 325+ MPs from the governing party.

[Tamas]

I think MPs chosing the next PM makes far more sense from a constitutional fair play point of view than a tiny subset of voters.

[Josquius]

It is how it should be. And I do think people's lack of understanding that the UK doesn't work like the US come election time could be a big part in unease at democratic reform.