Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Josquius]

Don't underestimate how much people are into history. Especially the key voter over 65 group.
It's in such x town past and present groups that I've seen the creeping rise of brexity thought so strong. Everything was better in the old days. Labour abandoned us. It's their fault.

If angling for the youth vote it probably wouldn't work. But I do think a few "remember x? That's just like what we support today" campaigns wouldn't go amiss just tp throw off the "labour changed not me!" bollocks.
Those spreading it directly are likely beyond hope and will just shift to a different tack. But the second degree people influenced by them will be effected by this.

With Blair and brown in particular labour really needs to reclaim their history and stop "but the last Labour government" being an easy go to for both parties to pass the blame.

[Sheilbh]

With Blair and brown in particular labour really needs to reclaim their history and stop "but the last Labour government" being an easy go to for both parties to pass the blame.

The most astonishing stat - after the Tories have gone for austerity and now u-turned until the next election, after Brexit, but also after spending on corona - is that the Tory lead on who do you trust to manage the economy and the same for national debt is still incredibly high. I think that a big part of that is that the Tories have spent 11 years criticising the Blair/Brown government (like Labur spent 15 years attacking the Tories for Black Wedndesday) with zero pushback from Labour. There's too many people who are basically like "yes that was an awful government, except the minimum wage" - it's incredible

[Neil]

With Blair and brown in particular labour really needs to reclaim their history and stop "but the last Labour government" being an easy go to for both parties to pass the blame.

The most astonishing stat - after the Tories have gone for austerity and now u-turned until the next election, after Brexit, but also after spending on corona - is that the Tory lead on who do you trust to manage the economy and the same for national debt is still incredibly high. I think that a big part of that is that the Tories have spent 11 years criticising the Blair/Brown government (like Labur spent 15 years attacking the Tories for Black Wedndesday) with zero pushback from Labour. There's too many people who are basically like "yes that was an awful government, except the minimum wage" - it's incredible

I also think that Tyr's over 65s play a role in that.  As much as Thatcher overstayed her welcome, we shouldn't forget that her reaction to the economic crises of the Seventies played an enormous role in defining how people thought of not just the Tories, but British politics in general.  As a shaper of how Britons as a whole viewed their politics, perhaps her only equal is Gladstone. 

Which is why it's so interesting that so many people who think of themselves as dyed-in-the-wool Thatcherites came out on the Leave side.  It was Thatcher who saved Britain's EU membership.

[Josquius]

Thatcher founded the modern brexit movement with the events of 1988. I'm not sure what you mean by she saved Britain's membership?

[Sheilbh]

Just on the HGV drivers shortage - John Lewis is increasing their wage for drivers for John Lewis and Waitrose by £2 an hour (or up to £5,000 a year) to avoid them being tempted away by Tesco, M&S etc who are offering cash bonuses for signing up.

I still basically think this is good. Drivers took a gamble on getting an HGV licence - the value of that has gone up because demand for their services has increased and supply has fallen. They should get rewards for that - in just the same way we let bankers and laywers and accountants capture the value of their skills. Also it could drive other good things. If the cost of transporting by road goes up I imagine retailers will look for local producers, or for other transport methods (train freight plus transport hubs?) which is better from an environmental perspective.

There'll be inflation but I'm intensely relaxed about inflation as all young people should be

Edit: Oh and meanwhile in the latest bout of the Tory civil war there were rumours that Johnson was thinking of demoting Sunak because of Sunak's team briefing his opposition to various covid measures to Tory MPs. Broadly it seems like Sunak has carved out a political identity (a very Treasury, same old Tories one): he's not keen on all this new spending and his priority is economic growth. Johnson basically has nothing but Brexit, which is done, and levelling up, which is vaccous at this point.

Plus there's now a base of Tory MPs who are very pro-Sunak which would make firing him difficult for Johnson - especially as his base among Tory MPs was always weak and has weakened. It seems that Johnson allies are actually pushing for him to promote more "big beasts" to the cabinet. Johnson's cabinet was criticised (rightly) for being mainly picked for loyalty, but politics still happens and now Sunak's grown into his role, built a public profile and wooed Tory MPs. So, the allies, are arguing the best thing Johnson could do would be bring in other possible successors/canny operators into the cabinet so there's not one clear successor/focus of dissent.

[Neil]

Thatcher founded the modern brexit movement with the events of 1988. I'm not sure what you mean by she saved Britain's membership?

Fontainebleau 1984.

[jimmy olsen]

Who could have expected this? 

https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1424412756854329352

The shortage of qualified drivers has reached crisis point, with ministers now examining every means possible to keep Britain supplied.

Army on standby to restock Britain's shelves amid truck driver shortage
Up to 2,000 military HGV drivers on standby – however Britain is 100,000 lorry drivers short

[Sheilbh]

Alpaca update.

Geronimo will probably be killed today or in the next few days. There are people forming a human shield around the alpaca and apparently there will be a march in London today

This is a profoundly unserious country

[The Brain]

I formed a subhuman shield once.

[Tamas]

Alpaca update.

Geronimo will probably be killed today or in the next few days. There are people forming a human shield around the alpaca and apparently there will be a march in London today

This is a profoundly unserious country

I told you, it's not unserious, it's prosperous and comfortable.

in Hungary people have way too much daily uncertainties and stress to become concerned with a single infectious animal's fate.

[The Larch]

How was the saying about Britain being a nation of pet lovers and children haters, or something like that?

[celedhring]

Alpaca update.

Geronimo will probably be killed today or in the next few days. There are people forming a human shield around the alpaca and apparently there will be a march in London today

This is a profoundly unserious country

We had a similar ruckus (ok, not marches or human shields) when the authorities put down an ebola patient's dog.

[Sheilbh]

How was the saying about Britain being a nation of pet lovers and children haters, or something like that?

I know what you mean but I can't think of it.

But it is worth noting that the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals was founded in 1824, while the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children was founded in 1884 - inspired by the RSPCA and a British businessman's trip to New York where he saw New York charities working with children, as opposed to making children work. The name difference is deliberate because the founders of the NSPCC thought that if they had Royal in the name it would cause confusion with the RSPCA

Similarly the first legislation on animal welfare and cruelty was passed in the 1830s, while children would have to wait until the 1890s before the first law to protect them.

The Victorians were weird and fucked up.

[mongers]

I think it's a huge part of their success. Especially when you look at Labour and there is really interesting thinking on the left that has largely been ignored. Instead you have the Labour left around Corbyn who are basically arguing for an updated form of Bennism and a Labour right who are insisting that the way to win is just to apply Blair's analysis of 1997. And in that documentary Blair says people think why Labour lost so much is complicated and it's not: society had changed and the party hadn't. I look at both factions
....

Shelf a new Radio 4 comedy/history series about the Labour parties wilderness years starts tonight at 11.30pm:

Things Can Only Get Worse
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b7hl3n

O'Farrell's best-selling comic memoir about how he helped the Labour Party lose elections, with a bit of help from Hugh Dennis, Jan Ravens, Doon Mackichan and Lewis MacLeod.

How did British politics go from New Labour landslides to Brexit and Corbyn? John O'Farrell is the comedy writer with a knack of finding himself at the heart of British politics; standing in Maidenhead against Theresa May in 2001, doing even worse in the Eastleigh by-election of 2013, successfully campaigning for a non-selective inner-city state school but then realising he had to send his kids to it.

Looking back at the last 20 years in British politics, these are the frank and funny memoirs of one Labour activist who tried to carry on as usual long after politics stopped making sense.

Episode 1 - 1997-2001
Election night 1997 ushered in a new era. Tony Blair promised a brave new future to the sound of D:Ream singing Things Can Only Get Better. That was certainly true for Professor Brian Cox. But the shine of that election victory is a distant memory in 2018. Just how did we get here?

[Tonitrus]

How was the saying about Britain being a nation of pet lovers and children haters, or something like that?

I know what you mean but I can't think of it.

But it is worth noting that the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals was founded in 1824, while the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children was founded in 1884 - inspired by the RSPCA and a British businessman's trip to New York where he saw New York charities working with children, as opposed to making children work. The name difference is deliberate because the founders of the NSPCC thought that if they had Royal in the name it would cause confusion with the RSPCA

Similarly the first legislation on animal welfare and cruelty was passed in the 1830s, while children would have to wait until the 1890s before the first law to protect them.

The Victorians were weird and fucked up.

Victorians?   

I would love to see an honest/anonymous poll of whom people would choose to save, if they could save only one...their own pet, or their neighbor.