Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[ulmont]

Edit: I think it's fine to oppose lifting restrictions or ending lockdown. It's fine to have concerns around that. But I think, unlike before, vaccines have changed the situation and you need to also explain what are the triggers where you would lift restrictions or what your proposed route out of lockdown is

This has been the problem with COVID policies here as well...if you just tell people "this is indefinite" they tell you "fuck you, I'm going to the bar then."

[Sheilbh]

Although the problem here is the opposite. People are quite supportive of the restrictions - so it's more challenging to get a sense of when they should be lifted

[Tamas]

What we need PRONTO is agreeing with the EU to accept each others' vaccine certs. It's ridiculous.

If I had myself a vaccine cert from North Macedonia I could waltz into Hungary no worries but the British is apparently not good enough to enter without quarantine requirements.

[The Brain]

What we need PRONTO is agreeing with the EU to accept each others' vaccine certs. It's ridiculous.

If I had myself a vaccine cert from North Macedonia I could waltz into Hungary no worries but the British is apparently not good enough to enter without quarantine requirements.

The British fudge certificates, they never intended to certify just vaccinated people. It's a different culture.

[Tamas]

What we need PRONTO is agreeing with the EU to accept each others' vaccine certs. It's ridiculous.

If I had myself a vaccine cert from North Macedonia I could waltz into Hungary no worries but the British is apparently not good enough to enter without quarantine requirements.

The British fudge certificates, they never intended to certify just vaccinated people. It's a different culture.

Fair point

[Tamas]

This month's "is it possible we are living in a monarchy where the monarch is above the law?" article:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jul/28/queen-secretly-lobbied-scottish-ministers-climate-law-exemption

[Sheilbh]

What we need PRONTO is agreeing with the EU to accept each others' vaccine certs. It's ridiculous.

If I had myself a vaccine cert from North Macedonia I could waltz into Hungary no worries but the British is apparently not good enough to enter without quarantine requirements.

Yeah apparently it is proceeding at UK-EU level - and the thing about not recognising AZ vaccine batches manufactured in India because they're not EMA authorised is going to be fixed too. That one is mad because the vaccine is authorised in Europe just not that site - I think there is a real issue and I don't know the answer about recognising vaccine certificates for vaccines that aren't authorised in your jurisdiction. I am comfortable with it - but for example even within Europe this is going to create problems like a Hungarian who got SinoPharm or a Slovenian who got Sputnik wanting to travel to countries that haven't authorised those vaccines.

I am very relaxed/liberal on vaccines and think the general approach should be if the WHO has listed them for emergency use we should all accept them (which includes Sinopharm, Sinovac etc) - but I think there'll be some resistance to that.

At the minute some member states recognise the UK vaccine certifiate - for example Germany, France and Greece - others don't, like Italy. What's also weird is some EU member states allow their citizens to download the EU app and register their vaccinations on the NHS (again France and Germany do, but Italy doesn't) - and vice versa so at the minute I think there are plans to allow the NHS app to be for British residents in Europe and they can register their vaccinations in the German or French system but at the minute it doesn't have that functionality. And that's going to be key if countries keep moving towards vaccine passports.

But at the minute UK policy is kind of crazy because - from my understanding - because they recognise different quarantining rules for Americans or Europeans coming into the UK with a vaccine certificate, but that doesn't apply to the NHS app, so Brits and people who got vaccinated in the UK still have to self-isolate and test if they're coming back from an amber/red list country It is so illogical I can only assume it's an oversight that will be fixed - right?

I wonder if this is what it was like when passports and visas were first introduced post-WW1 - just carnage of trying to work out different rules. I even found it when I was looking at going overseas for a holiday (which didn't happen) where you can work out what you need to do to cross the border but it's really difficult to work out what you can actually do once you're there - what's open/closed. It doesn't matter so much for someone like you who just wants to see family, but even then I imagine it'd be nice to know if you can go for dinner etc - when you should wear a mask etc.

[Sheilbh]

This month's "is it possible we are living in a monarchy where the monarch is above the law?" article:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jul/28/queen-secretly-lobbied-scottish-ministers-climate-law-exemption

It may be worth getting rid of - but Queen's consent is part of the law. It's a common law prerogative power and would be subject to the common law in its use (which is why there are a series of exemptions) - and it could be abolished by Westminster.

[Tonitrus]

What we need PRONTO is agreeing with the EU to accept each others' vaccine certs. It's ridiculous.

If I had myself a vaccine cert from North Macedonia I could waltz into Hungary no worries but the British is apparently not good enough to enter without quarantine requirements.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57999362

Covid: No quarantine for fully jabbed US and EU travellers to England

[Sheilbh]

So this is probably nothing - but the more fringe members of the old Vote Leave crew have been trying (again) to make the whole "small boats" of migrants in the Channel a thing again. Their focus this time is the RNLI (Royal National Lifeboat Institution) saving people in danger - and I think this from Gabriel Milland is spot on:

Gabriel Milland
@gabrielmilland
If I had to pick an institution it is less wise to instigate a culture war with than a victorious England football team in the middle of a major tournament, it would probably be the RNLI.
I've seen no polling on this at all. But if you asked the public to rank them in terms of esteem and respect they'd probably come in slightly above the SAS and only a bit below HM the Queen.
We are talking about something which - whatever the rights and wrongs - is virtually sacred to a broad swathe of the population. All those miniature lifeboat collecting tins in chip shops... Tours round the lifeboat station in seaside towns... The idea of being volunteers.
Obviously, the "right" bit of this is the idea of rescuing desperate people in danger of drowning. And the public would see it that way too, I bet.

I can't think of a more universally well liked charity/institution than the RNLI and it is crazy to try and take them on. As he says you will see their collection boxes (shaped like little boats) everywhere - as a kid I did get a tour round the lifeboat station as a prize for a school painting competition. And I also can't think of any charity viewed with less cynicism - there's some people who aren't a fan of the British Legion/poppies, other charities are a little too "campaign-y" for some etc - the RNLI is volunteers who put their lives at risk to save others So far the government have avoided the trap, but I wonder if this is a difference with the US culture wars.

There very often politics seems to over-ride pre-existing opinions (see the flip in attitudes about the FBI by Democrats and Republicans) because of politics and Trump. Here I think the culture war works when it goes with the grain of what people already  think and you basically increase a pre-existing tension - but political identity isn't enough to make people change their minds on things. So going after the England football team or RNLI just makes you look like a lunatic - I'm not sure if the government have actually learned anything from their brush with the England team or if they're just about smart enough to realise that going up against the RNLI will end badly.

[crazy canuck]

It has not escaped the attention of the press in Canada that the bright bulbs in the UK have determined the US is less of a risk than Canada.

[Sheilbh]

It has not escaped the attention of the press in Canada that the bright bulbs in the UK have determined the US is less of a risk than Canada.

Same risk - you're both Amber List.

This is about recognising covid vaccine certificates/apps so people who can prove they've been double-vaxxed don't have to quarantine. From a quick search Canada hasn't launched their covid travel certificate scheme yet - but I might be wrong that was just a quick search. And I have concerns about the US just being forgeable cards rather than digital.

Edit: Totally separate but the MoD is nationalising Sheffield Forgemasters who are highly specialised steel castings manufacturer that mainly works in the nuclear industry and provides essential products for both the UK civil and military nuclear sector. This is a good thing and the rationale of protecting the supply chain for national security makes a lot of sense.

But I would note that one of the first decisions of the Coalition was to cancel a state-backed loan of £80 million for the company in 2010 and since then they've been sort of running from re-financing to re-financing. Now we're nationalising them at a cost of £2.5 billion plus £500 million worth of investment. I'd say this is a pretty big failure of any sort of strategic thinking or planning by government (and I can't think of a better summary of Cameron and Osborne's time than saving £80 million but having to spend £3 billion for the same thing just a few years later ).

[The Brain]

It has not escaped the attention of the press in Canada that the bright bulbs in the UK have determined the US is less of a risk than Canada.

Same risk - you're both Amber List.

Wasn't she in Sex Trek: The Next Penetration?

[Agelastus]

Now we're nationalising them at a cost of £2.5 billion plus £500 million worth of investment.

The stories I am seeing say £2.6 million and "up to" £400 million investment over 10 years.

[The Larch]

So this is probably nothing - but the more fringe members of the old Vote Leave crew have been trying (again) to make the whole "small boats" of migrants in the Channel a thing again. Their focus this time is the RNLI (Royal National Lifeboat Institution) saving people in danger - and I think this from Gabriel Milland is spot on:

Gabriel Milland
@gabrielmilland
If I had to pick an institution it is less wise to instigate a culture war with than a victorious England football team in the middle of a major tournament, it would probably be the RNLI.
I've seen no polling on this at all. But if you asked the public to rank them in terms of esteem and respect they'd probably come in slightly above the SAS and only a bit below HM the Queen.
We are talking about something which - whatever the rights and wrongs - is virtually sacred to a broad swathe of the population. All those miniature lifeboat collecting tins in chip shops... Tours round the lifeboat station in seaside towns... The idea of being volunteers.
Obviously, the "right" bit of this is the idea of rescuing desperate people in danger of drowning. And the public would see it that way too, I bet.

I can't think of a more universally well liked charity/institution than the RNLI and it is crazy to try and take them on. As he says you will see their collection boxes (shaped like little boats) everywhere - as a kid I did get a tour round the lifeboat station as a prize for a school painting competition. And I also can't think of any charity viewed with less cynicism - there's some people who aren't a fan of the British Legion/poppies, other charities are a little too "campaign-y" for some etc - the RNLI is volunteers who put their lives at risk to save others So far the government have avoided the trap, but I wonder if this is a difference with the US culture wars.

There very often politics seems to over-ride pre-existing opinions (see the flip in attitudes about the FBI by Democrats and Republicans) because of politics and Trump. Here I think the culture war works when it goes with the grain of what people already  think and you basically increase a pre-existing tension - but political identity isn't enough to make people change their minds on things. So going after the England football team or RNLI just makes you look like a lunatic - I'm not sure if the government have actually learned anything from their brush with the England team or if they're just about smart enough to realise that going up against the RNLI will end badly.

It's basically the same gameplan than what the NGOs operating in the Mediterranean saving drowning inmigrants have been enduring for the last few years. They were one of Salvini's favourite targets when he was in government.