Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[celedhring]

Our regional government did the same. They wanted summer festivals back, so they called them "pilot tests", held them as normal with a coat paint of "science!" while tens of thousands of young people gathered maskless, and here we are.

[Josquius]

I'm sure we've all seen this story going around.
Jesus this is insane. Windrush taught them nothing.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jul/19/spanish-woman-in-uk-for-44-years-sacked-over-post-brexit-rules

Spanish woman in UK for 44 years sacked over post-Brexit rules
Employee in care home, who arrived as an 11-month-old, unable to prove she has right to work in Britain

A Spanish woman who has lived in England for 44 years has been sacked from her job in a care home because she is unable to prove she has the right to work in the UK, in a case illustrating the difficulties experienced by EU nationals as employers grapple with post-Brexit right-to-work regulations.

The 45-year-old woman, who arrived in Britain as an 11-month-old baby and who has never left the country, said she has tried more than 100 times to get through to the Home Office-run helpline in the past three weeks, but has never been able to speak to an adviser.

She has applied for EU settled status, but her application is stuck somewhere in the backlog of over 500,000 cases the Home Office has yet to process. She is the main breadwinner, with two children to support, and said her dismissal has left her struggling to buy food.

Charities helping EU nationals say the case is not unique. "We've seen this time and again when people with pending EUSS applications were asked to take unpaid leave, or were turned down from employment," Dora-Olivia Vicol, CEO of the Work Rights Centre, said.

The care worker was called in for a formal meeting with her employers, a large residential care organisation, on 28 June, when managers discovered that she had no documentation proving her right to work in the UK.

"They asked me to prove that I came into the UK legally – it was like they were accusing me of coming here on the back of a lorry, but I came here as a baby. They asked me whether I could provide evidence that I had the right to work in the UK; I've been paying tax and national insurance here for almost 30 years. I was very upset – there were lots of tears on my side," she said. She asked for her name and the name of her employers not to be printed because she hopes to get her job back.

After the meeting, she applied for EU Settled Status on 30 June, just before the deadline for applications – but has never had a British or a Spanish passport.

As a result she was unable to fill in a digital application for EU settled status; instead she had to make a complicated paper-based application, and send in her birth certificate. She received a receipt of the application via email, but has not received the formal certificate that would allow her to continue working while waiting to be granted EU settled status.

On 2 July she was invited to a disciplinary meeting at work and fired after being told the organisation risked being fined if it continued to employ her.

She had been aware that she might need to apply for EU settled status, having seen government advertisements, but was unsure about how to apply because she had no passport; she has previously sought legal advice from immigration solicitors, but was quoted fees of £2,000 and could not afford it.

"I've been trying every day to get through to the Home Office resolution centre, between 10 and 20 times a day. All I get is a recorded message saying: 'We're too busy to take your call'," she said.

"Because I've been in this country all my life, I didn't think I would have any problems. My husband and two children are British," she said. She believes she is not eligible for unemployment benefits because she cannot prove she has the right to be in the UK. "My mother-in-law is helping with food. The bills aren't being paid, I can't drive because I only have half a tank of petrol left. I'm already overdrawn by £235."

She said she was missing the people she looked after at the care home. "It's been the most difficult thing I've ever had to deal with. All I want is to do my job and carry on with my life."

A Home Office spokesperson said: "There have already been more than 5.1m grants of status under the hugely successful EU settlement scheme. Anyone who applied to the scheme by the 30 June deadline, but has not had a decision, has their rights protected until their application is decided. This is set out in law."

But Vicol said the Work Rights Centre had tried to help resolve the situation without success. "Home Office staff recommended that we call again in two weeks' time, but this still leaves her, and others like her, in a highly vulnerable situation," she said. "Employers rarely take the time to read through to the Home Office supporting guidance, that specifies the process for outstanding applications – instead they run out of patience. The hostile environment has created a culture of fear, where risk-averse employers are overreacting in their right to work checks."

Really strikes me we need a shakeup in how citizenship works.
As this woman should just be British by default.

[Tamas]

This is obviously terrible, but it shows that people should not deal with state organisations on a "surely it will be fine" basis. You need evidence of your rights and you need to able to store that evidence yourself.

Which is one reason why I think a bloody mobile app for your only source of proving you shouldn't be kicked out of the country is a terrible idea which is bound to end bad.

[The Brain]

Hindsight is what it is, but she probably should have gotten UK citizenship in the years after the Brexit referendum. The people I know who've lived in the UK a lot shorter sure did.

[garbon]

This is obviously terrible, but it shows that people should not deal with state organisations on a "surely it will be fine" basis. You need evidence of your rights and you need to able to store that evidence yourself.

Which is one reason why I think a bloody mobile app for your only source of proving you shouldn't be kicked out of the country is a terrible idea which is bound to end bad.

Hindsight is what it is, but she probably should have gotten UK citizenship in the years after the Brexit referendum. The people I know who've lived in the UK a lot shorter sure did.

Agree with you both. I'm not sure why anyone would expect it would be okay to wait till the last minute when dealing with a state organization. They don't play and they don't care.

[Tamas]

So apparently when the trace app tells you to isolate it doesn't mean you must isolate it means you should consider isolating if it's not too inconvenient for your employer:

Minister stresses people pinged by NHS app can choose not to isolate
Good morning. Business leaders have become increasingly concerned about the so-called "pingdemic" caused by increasing numbers of people being told to isolate because they have been in contact with someone testing positive. Last night Boris Johnson said that critical workers would be exempt, and would be allowed to use regular testing instead provided they are fully vaccinated. (We are due to get the list today saying who will count as a critical worker.) But this morning Paul Scully, the business minister, offered an alternative solution; you can always ignore a ping from the NHS Covid app, he pointed out.

Scully was able to say this because, while an instruction to isolate from NHS test and trace is a legal requirement, a ping from the app is just advisory. This was not a distinction that was widely advertised when the app was launched, but ministers now seem keen to highlight it.

Scully told Times Radio:

It's important to understand the rules. You have to legally isolate if you are on the ... contacted by test and trace, or if you're trying to claim isolation payments.

The app is there to give ... to allow you to make informed decisions. And I think by backing out of mandating a lot of things, we're encouraging people to really get the data in their own hands to be able to make decisions on what's best for them, whether they're employer or an employee.

Asked whether this meant people should or should not self-isolate if pinged, Scully replied: "We want to encourage people to still use the app to be able to do the right thing, because we estimate it saves around 8,000 lives." But he said it was "up to individuals and employers".

Oh wait no that was an hour ago, you in fact MUST isolate when told to by the app:

No 10 insists it is 'crucial' for people to isolate when pinged, in rebuke to minister who implied otherwise
Downing Street has effectively slapped down Paul Scully, the business minister, for suggesting it is acceptable for people to ignore a request from the NHS Covid app to isolate. (See 9.25am.) A No 10 spokeswoman said:

Isolation remains the most important action people can take to stop the spread of the virus.

Given the risk of having and spreading the virus when people have been in contact with someone with Covid it is crucial people isolate when they are told to do so, either by NHS Test and Trace or by the NHS covid app.

Businesses should be supporting employees to isolate, they should not be encouraging them to break isolation.

This suggests that Scully, and his business minister colleague Lord Grimstone, were freelancing when they started pointing out that people could ignore the app, and not peddling an agreed No 10 line.

At his press conference yesterday Boris Johnson stressed the importance of isolation as a means of controlling Covid, saying it was "one of the few shots we have got left in our locker".

(That is because Johnson left the locker relatively empty when he took England to step 4 of the roadmap out of lockdown on Monday, abandoning some of the measures still in force in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.)

Stay tuned on policy for the next hour!

[garbon]

Well crucial but not a legal requirement.

[The Larch]

That woman's case seems pretty strange. She's been living in the UK since she was a baby but has neither Spanish nor British passports? And she was somehow aware that she might need to apply for settled status but didn't do so until called out by her employer and in the very last day? What kind of papers or official documents does she have, in case she has any at all? I wonder if the fact that the UK is a pretty paper-less country plays severely against people in these situations, as they're not used to having to do this kind of bureaucratic proceedings, and people with lower education and fewer means (which I can assume safely that this woman is) are in a much worse situation than a regular person that might already have some troubles with the whole thing.

[Josquius]

I guess she probably has a driving license and this has served her well enough for ID.
Its only in recent years the government has got big into proving you have the right to live in the UK, she could have been in this job since before that.
But yes, for sure its the poor that suffer most out of it. The rich will always find a way.

[Sheilbh]

That woman's case seems pretty strange. She's been living in the UK since she was a baby but has neither Spanish nor British passports? And she was somehow aware that she might need to apply for settled status but didn't do so until called out by her employer and in the very last day? What kind of papers or official documents does she have, in case she has any at all? I wonder if the fact that the UK is a pretty paper-less country plays severely against people in these situations, as they're not used to having to do this kind of bureaucratic proceedings, and people with lower education and fewer means (which I can assume safely that this woman is) are in a much worse situation than a regular person that might already have some troubles with the whole thing.

Yeah for sure I think that's part of it. She might have a driving licence but based on that article it sounds like she doesn't so the only thing she'll probably have is birth certificate and proof of address (utility bills, payslips etc). That's probably sufficient.

But this is one of the issues around equality - I'd also add the elderly to that. I think the "digital by default" approach for visas makes sense but I think it is far easier for people who are coming to the UK sort of fresh and may be more difficult for people who are here and have been here for a while but as you say maybe don't have the education or the means or the access to resources to help fix this. It's very different but it reminds me of when I've done pro-bono work at a law clinic and you get people who are on multiple demand letters for council tax payments or benefits re-payments so by the time they're seeking helps it's got really serious and there are court summons or whatever.

I think they need to make the helpline free - the charges for that are disgraceful. But I also think the issue here is here employer - I've read the law on this because I saw some scary article in the Guardian and legally it is crystal clear. The rights of people who have applied but not received a decision are protected and unchanged until a decision is made (including exhausting rights to appeal). I think there needs to be as much effort to educate especially small businesses of peoples' rights to stop this sort of issue. She's in the care sector - that is full of small businesses operating one care home with very low margins and I don't think they will be aware of what any of this means.

Which is one reason why I think a bloody mobile app for your only source of proving you shouldn't be kicked out of the country is a terrible idea which is bound to end bad.

I mean it's not stored on your phone - the app receives information from the central Home Office database and whether there's paper certificates or an app, it'll always be the Home Office database/record that matters.

And one of the big issues with Windrush was that the Home Office destroyed their (paper) records I think the in the 70s for space saving reasons. So if people didn't have the paper they got in 1948 they had no proof and neither did the body that was deporting them (without any evidence one way or the other).

Stay tuned on policy for the next hour!

They are so bad at comms - they desperately need someone like Campbell or Coulson setting out the "line to take" (and approving all media appearances) for ministers. It's normally just a political issue but this is public health information in a pandemic

Well crucial but not a legal requirement.

Self-isolation is still legally required.

Separately - for Tamas it might be worth checking on the status of the UK app in Europe. I believe France have now confirmed they accept (and can read) the NHS vaccination QR code. Though it may be going member state by member state.

[garbon]

Well crucial but not a legal requirement.

Self-isolation is still legally required.

Separately - for Tamas it might be worth checking on the status of the UK app in Europe. I believe France have now confirmed they accept (and can read) the NHS vaccination QR code. Though it may be going member state by member state.

When I looked up about it recently what I found was that app notifications did not create legal requirement to self-isolate only if you were contacted by NHS Track and Trace did you have a legal obligation to do so.

[Sheilbh]

Oh - I thought the app was track-and-trace. Thanks, useful to know (he says self isolating because of the app).

[Tamas]

I mean it's not stored on your phone - the app receives information from the central Home Office database and whether there's paper certificates or an app, it'll always be the Home Office database/record that matters.

Wasn't the assumption when deleting the Windrush archives was that if somebody needs it they'll be able to prove it by their own paper copies?

[Richard Hakluyt]

She will have a national insurance number and tied to that will be the records of her employment and NI payments. Back in the 1970s giving your NI number was all that was required for proof of identity. The rules have been getting ever tighter my entire adult life and people who started on the easier regime are getting caught out 

IMO the government could easily grant some provisional leave to remain to anyone with, say, 5 years NI contributions. This would be an extremely easy way to determine if someone's claim to stay in the UK is a substantive one; but the Home Office seems to get off on being nasty.

[Agelastus]

I guess she probably has a driving license and this has served her well enough for ID.
Its only in recent years the government has got big into proving you have the right to live in the UK, she could have been in this job since before that.
But yes, for sure its the poor that suffer most out of it. The rich will always find a way.

Driving ID was not sufficient to prove your proof of right to work in the UK when we were in the EU; in fact it was not a valid form of ID to use for this purpose at all regardless of nationality and origin.

As an EU national she should have been using one of these options, I think -

A passport or national identity card showing the holder, or a person named in the passport as the child of the holder, is a national of a European Economic Area country or Switzerland.

or

A Registration Certificate or Document Certifying Permanent Residence issued by the Home Office, to a national of a European Economic Area country or Switzerland.

or

A Permanent Residence Card issued by the Home Office, to the family member of a national of a European Economic Area country or Switzerland.

Yeah for sure I think that's part of it. She might have a driving licence but based on that article it sounds like she doesn't so the only thing she'll probably have is birth certificate and proof of address (utility bills, payslips etc). That's probably sufficient.

Only if it was a UK birth certificate; and for proof of right to work it needs to be a letter from the government or your last employer showing your NI number.