Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Sheilbh]

Don't know - the story's not out until 21 July.

My guess, given that it's from the National Archives is that it will be communications with ministers or civil servants drafting the legislation. As I say I don't think it necessarily matters from a legal perspective, but is interesting.

[Josquius]

As I was reading and got to embargoed till I expected to read 2060 or something.
But just two weeks away... Interesting.
I was just wondering this morning when Scottish independence was to be.

[Tamas]

Scotland has that right, based on what?

Secret. Emails.

[Tamas]

As I was reading and got to embargoed till I expected to read 2060 or something.
But just two weeks away... Interesting.
I was just wondering this morning when Scottish independence was to be.

That's exactly what we need right after Brexit and the pandemic: tearing out a major part of the country.

[Jacob]

As I was reading and got to embargoed till I expected to read 2060 or something.
But just two weeks away... Interesting.
I was just wondering this morning when Scottish independence was to be.

That's exactly what we need right after Brexit and the pandemic: tearing out a major part of the country.

If not now, when?

[Sheilbh]

If not now, when?

Exactly. It's the great opportunity and challengefor the nationalists - although I think we need a return to some form of normality first because I don't think people will react well to a constitutional campaign while they still feel there's a crisis/pandemic going on.

Secret. Emails.

Wut? They're like any other document produced by government.

As I was reading and got to embargoed till I expected to read 2060 or something.

Yeah I thought it was 30 years before they released documents so it'll be interesting to see why these have been released.

[Tamas]

Wut? They're like any other document produced by government.

How does written discussion between members of the 1997 government give legal right for anyone to do anything?

[The Brain]

Emails from 1997, eh? I wonder what the dancing baby says about Scotland's rights.

[garbon]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9784821/Original-devolution-deal-Scotland-permits-unofficial-independence-referendum.html

According to a 1997 email found in the National Archive and seen by the Telegraph, Mr Dewar, who led the country for Labour, believed such a vote was possible.

The message from Tony Blair's then special adviser on Scotland, the now MP Pat McFadden, highlighted concerns over Mr Dewar's views ahead of publication of a white paper on devolution that he authored.

'The reserved powers model means that the Scottish Parliament will have the power to legislate on anything not in the reserved list,' Mr McFadden wrote.

'Therefore it can have referendums on anything it wants, even if it cannot enact the result.

So one of author of white paper felt that was what it granted at the time?

[Tamas]

[celedhring]

Ah, the whole "can you hold a referendum outside matters affecting your devolved powers" debate. I've already seen this plotline.

[Tamas]

Ah, the whole "can you hold a referendum outside matters affecting your devolved powers" debate. I've already seen this plotline.

It's almost as if having loosely defined and overlapping roles and responsibilities and a general lack of written-down commonly agreed basic rules (like a written constitution) can cause issues for even medium-sized organisation let alone multi-national countries. 

[garbon]

I mean he wasn't a random man. He was the Secretary of State for Scotland in Blair's government and the first First Minister of Scotland. He also wrote the white paper that the Scotland Act 1998 was largely based on.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-25092199

SNP ministers cite as precedent the White Paper on devolved powers published by the then Scottish Secretary Donald Dewar ahead of the referendum on devolution on the 11th of September 1997. Voters were asked two questions: should there be a devolved Scottish Parliament; should it have tax varying powers?

Voters assented to both propositions - and Westminster duly responded by legislating for a Scottish Parliament, now established.

Crucially, the details of that legislation, the Scotland Act 1998, closely mirrored the content of the advance White Paper.

Donald Dewar faced obstacles in Cabinet from sceptical colleagues but was able to argue that his proposals, as set out in the White Paper, had a popular mandate.

Tony Blair broadly backed him on that view, while drawing certain "red lines" designed, as he saw it, to sustain the Union.

That White Paper was itself based upon the conclusions of the cross-party Constitutional Convention through which Labour and the Liberal Democrats, in opposition prior to 1997, had drafted a scheme of Scottish devolution.

edit: Actually I guess you are somewhat right that it was one of Blair's spad's concerns about what the white paper said.

[celedhring]

Ah, the whole "can you hold a referendum outside matters affecting your devolved powers" debate. I've already seen this plotline.

It's almost as if having loosely defined and overlapping roles and responsibilities and a general lack of written-down commonly agreed basic rules (like a written constitution) can cause issues for even medium-sized organisation let alone multi-national countries.

We had it written down and our nationalists ignored it all the same. 

[garbon]

Ah, the whole "can you hold a referendum outside matters affecting your devolved powers" debate. I've already seen this plotline.

I don't know enough about it to say but it appears that the Scotland Act of 1998 (and its subsequent amendments) specifically notes matters not devolved to Scotland (reserved matters), rather than specifying what areas have been specifically devolved to Scotland. While the union of Scotland and England is a reserved matter so Holyrood can't actually declare Scotland independent, unclear if it can't legislate a non-binding referendum on the matter. And given that the UK has shown it feels compelled to follow non-binding referenda...

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/whats-the-process-for-a-second-independence-referendum-in-scotland/

The Union of Scotland and England is a reserved matter
Holyrood is unable to legislate on 'reserved matters,' which are the responsibility of the UK Parliament. Paragraph 1(b) of schedule 5 of the Scotland Act 1998 states that "the Union of the Kingdoms of Scotland and England" is a reserved matter. This means the Scottish Parliament cannot declare Scotland independent, as it does not have the legislative ability to do so.

It is not clear as a matter of law, however, if the Scottish Parliament can unilaterally hold a referendum on independence. Only if it was judged that such a referendum 'relates to' the Union would it likely fall outside competence. Importantly, this debate has not been resolved, rather the Scottish and UK Governments reached an agreement which allowed the 2014 referendum to proceed.