Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Zanza]

The first Brexit White Paper of the British Parliament in 2017 clearly stated that the United Kingdom was always a sovereign state during its EU membership. And obviously is now as well.

[Sheilbh]

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereignty

I would argue that the UK has supreme legitimate authority over NI and that it has the legal right to that both de facto and de jure.

All external factors that seemingly limits that has been agreed to by the UK as the sovereign actor.

From the same Wiki there's this quote which sort of sums up the disagreement, which I think is quite interesting

There exists perhaps no conception the meaning of which is more controversial than that of sovereignty. It is an indisputable fact that this conception, from the moment when it was introduced into political science until the present day, has never had a meaning which was universally agreed upon.

Looking at that Wiki I think I disagree that any modern state has full sovereignty. Modern states do not have absolute or exclusive sovereignty: "the degree to which decisions made by a sovereign entity might be contradicted by another authority. Along these lines, the German sociologist Max Weber proposed that sovereignty is a community's monopoly on the legitimate use of force; and thus any group claiming the same right must either be brought under the yoke of the sovereign, proven illegitimate, or otherwise contested and defeated for sovereignty to be genuine. International law, competing branches of government, and authorities reserved for subordinate entities (such as federated states or republics) represent legal infringements on exclusivity. Social institutions such as religious bodies, corporations, and competing political parties might represent de facto infringements on exclusivity."

I think in the modern, post-war world, sovereignty is generally multiple which is a good thing (I think it probably was in the past too - the rights of cities and the churches, the Republic of the Indians etc). On the Wiki there's a nice line that "sovereignty is more than anything else a matter of legitimacy" and I think that's right it is more than territorial control.

Ok then, so we can agree that your definition is not really useful for our current discussion then. 

I was the one who said it - and knew exactly what I meant

[Sheilbh]

The first Brexit White Paper of the British Parliament in 2017 clearly stated that the United Kingdom was always a sovereign state during its EU membership. And obviously is now as well.

I don't disagree with that at all.

[Sheilbh]

In other UK news - this seems like a good move:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/nov/13/met-police-told-40-of-recruits-must-be-from-bame-backgrounds - The link has interesting charts too.

Met police told 40% of recruits must be from BAME backgrounds
London mayor Sadiq Khan and police force agree target as part of major race action plan
Vikram Dodd Police and crime correspondent
Fri 13 Nov 2020 06.00 GMT
Last modified on Fri 13 Nov 2020 10.25 GMT

Britain's biggest police force must hire 40% of new recruits from ethnic minority backgrounds, while officers will have to justify stop and search to community panels under new plans designed to quell the race crisis engulfing Scotland Yard.

The Guardian has learned details of the new initiative on race and policing hammered out by London's mayor and the Metropolitan police after months of negotiations.

The Met commissioner, Cressida Dick, is expected to accept that the force is not free of racism or discrimination, and wants to improve, when the race action plan is unveiled on Friday.

It comes after mass Black Lives Matter protests over police racism following the killing of George Floyd in the US.

Dick has been under pressure over a string of controversial incidents, including stop and searches of innocent black people who were handcuffed, leading to claims of racial profiling.

Official figures show black people are disproportionately hit by key police powers, tactics and use of force, which the Met denies is due to systemic racism or bias.

New research for Sadiq Khan, the London mayor, finds black people in the capital are about six times more likely than white people to be stopped while driving.

Those close to Khan believe the package of measures are the biggest reforms to policing and race relations in a generation, and the Met will vow to implement them.

But the plan does not include the landmark finding from the 1999 Macpherson report that the Met was plagued by "institutional racism". Dick has denied that finding applies any more.

The key challenge for both Khan and the Met is whether they can stem and then reverse the drop in confidence among ethnic minority communities, and especially among black people. Together with the home secretary, Khan oversees the Met.

The plan will set the Met a target for new recruits, with 40% being from ethnic minority backgrounds by 2022, rather than the 19% target it had been planning.

The Met has the most black, Asian and minority ethnic (BAME) officers of any force: 5,000 out of 32,600. But it also has the biggest race gap of any force because London is 40% BAME, while the Met's ranks are 15.4% BAME. In 2019 the Met estimated it would take another 100 years to reach racial parity.

The new target also includes a drive to recruit new officers from London rather than surrounding areas – a policy first adopted when Boris Johnson was London mayor, and then dropped.

The Met will be expected to answer to new community panels on a range of controversial issues. It will review stops where the sole ground is the "sniff" of cannabis, which are supposed to have stopped because they were thought to be a way to harass black communities, but are alleged to be continuing.

Community panels will also oversee elite officers from the Territorial Support Group parachuted in to carry out stops, as well as the work of the Violent Crime Task force.

Key findings informing the new plan are that 59% of black victims of crime were satisfied with how the Met dealt with their allegations compared with 68% of white victims.

In two recent cases the police watchdog launched investigations into claims the Met bungled the investigation into a racist attack on three black women in north-west London. The police watchdog has launched a criminal inquiry into allegations two officers took selfies at the scene where two black sisters were murdered in a London park.

Khan's administration believes the action plan will lead to real change. A City Hall source said: "This is generational, the most significant changes to policing and black communities since the Macpherson report."

Other key findings of research underpinning the plans are that black Caribbean people are 28 percentage points less confident in police use of stop and search and more likely than white people to think it is unfair.

In the upsurge in the Met's use of stop and search in 2019 more black people, who are around 13% of London's population, were stopped than white, who are 60% of the population.

Bearing down on violent crime, especially knife crime, is the Met's key justification for its level of stops and the way it carries them out.

Between 2008 and 2018, black Londoners were "1.8 times as likely to be victims of knife crime as non-black Londoners, and five times as likely to be charged for knife crimes as non-black Londoners", the research found.

Stops on vehicles will be examined for evidence of discrimination. Vehicle stops were at the heart of controversial incidents including the searching of champion athlete Bianca Williams and her partner, both of whom were handcuffed while their baby was in the car, where nothing was found.

Khan said: "There is still a great amount of work to do to unpick the conscious and unconscious bias and systemic racism that still exists in our public institutions and our society as a whole. It is essential that we listen and respond to the frustrations voiced by Black communities ... about the racial and social injustice they see when they interact with our public institutions – from the police service to the education system, the courts, the media and beyond."

Nationally police chiefs are developing their own plans for all 43 forces in England and Wales, and the Independent Office for Police Conduct is investigating claims of discrimination in policing.

[Tamas]

7% difference in satisfaction with police doesn't seem overly dramatic.

Also on stop and search I can see how that probably works out with racist cops, but if the poorest, most crime ridden areas have large/disproportionate BAME populations (which is probably a racism indication on its own) then stop and search would generate bad race statistics by necessity would it not?

[garbon]

I'm not sure how this target will work. Lower standards to get more BAME recruits? Quicker firings of underperforming white police officers?

Seems unlikely they can pull off enough of a culture shift/PR shift to get to those levels by 2022 without both coming into play.

[The Larch]

Ok then, so we can agree that your definition is not really useful for our current discussion then. 

I was the one who said it - and knew exactly what I meant

Well, I hope you enjoy being obtuse, unscrutable and misunderstood. 

[Josquius]

Rather than lower standard surely subsidies and enticements to get qualified BAME people into the police I guess?

Its a dodgy thing though with a lot being turned off it because of the racist culture, but that isn't going to change unless more minorities are brought onboard.

[Sheilbh]

I'm not sure.

Having a look at an old Met report and they apparently reached 27% BAME recruitment (when Johnson was Mayor and there was a rule that to apply you needed to have lived in London for 3 of the last six years) and they apparently had a big boost in BAME applicants when they did a campaign for multilingual applicants. So maybe 40% of new recruits is attainable?

Obviously the next bit is making sure that BAME recruits who become cops then stay in the Met and get promoted/opportunities etc. From what I've read about campaigns in law firms (obviously a different sector/environment) recruitment is the easy bit to fix.

[Sheilbh]

Well, I hope you enjoy being obtuse, unscrutable and misunderstood. 

I've explained it. It's not my fault you're all committed Westphalians - that's on you

[garbon]

Rather than lower standard surely subsidies and enticements to get qualified BAME people into the police I guess?

Its a dodgy thing though with a lot being turned off it because of the racist culture, but that isn't going to change unless more minorities are brought onboard.

What enticements? It isn't like the Met hasn't been trying for a long time to up the percentage of BAME staff. And even when they come in, they end up having to deal with the culture/atmosphere that the police have and we see often those recruits complaining in the press.

[Josquius]

What enticements? It isn't like the Met hasn't been trying for a long time to up the percentage of BAME staff. And even when they come in, they end up having to deal with the culture/atmosphere that the police have and we see often those recruits complaining in the press.

Similar kind of stuff they use to get graduates in in-demand subjects into teaching. Extra money can convince people to put up with a fair bit of shit.

(when Johnson was Mayor and there was a rule that to apply you needed to have lived in London for 3 of the last six years)

I wonder how universal this is. As I'm sure up here the rule is quite the opposite, you can't be in the police in your local area in case personal links get in the way of being fair.
No expert of course, just what I heard from guys looking into joining the police back when  I was at school.

[garbon]

I'm not sure.

Having a look at an old Met report and they apparently reached 27% BAME recruitment (when Johnson was Mayor and there was a rule that to apply you needed to have lived in London for 3 of the last six years) and they apparently had a big boost in BAME applicants when they did a campaign for multilingual applicants. So maybe 40% of new recruits is attainable?

So because it reached a level that was still quite lower than new target perhaps the new target is attainable?

Obviously the next bit is making sure that BAME recruits who become cops then stay in the Met and get promoted/opportunities etc. From what I've read about campaigns in law firms (obviously a different sector/environment) recruitment is the easy bit to fix.

Yeah, I don't see how that's a relevant recruitment comparison given that law firms are not generally seen as direct oppressors of minorities/not seen to be saddled with institutional racism and head of organisation (Cressida Dick) who says they've already solved the issue of institutional racism.

[garbon]

Similar kind of stuff they use to get graduates in in-demand subjects into teaching. Extra money can convince people to put up with a fair bit of shit.

Giving BAME people extra money/special treatment sounds like a terrible way to integrate them into the wider force.

[garbon]

I feel like real change is only going to happen once leadership starts taking the matter seriously and is committed to making the tough calls, enforcing the decisions unpopular among the ranks to confront racism. You aren't going to change a culture from the bottom up, you need leadership to be on board to make changes.

Otherwise, even if you do magically get the force to 40% BAME, they'll also have still received training from the same flawed institution and will only perpetuate its faults.