Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Sheilbh]

I agree they're playing a long game. But I think their target is maybe to take the leadership back in 2024 and until then, keep the soft left going.

In 2016 Owen Smith and Angela Eagle were dreadful candidates, but I don't know who else they had who hadn't already lost to Corbyn in 2015. And Smith had the support of about two thirds of Labour MPs. I don't think it was half-hearted I think they really, desperately wanted Corbyn out - but then Corbyn is good rallies and has an enthusiatic base, so maybe anything looks half-hearted next to that.. I think they overestimated Labour anger at Brexit to be enough to throw out the stuff Labour members like about Corbyn.

Again these aren't smears, some samples from the Jewish Labour Movement's submissions to the EHRC:

In the overarching submission from the JLM, there are detailed allegations of antisemitic abuse at party meetings and by members online, including:
    One respondent who listed 22 examples of antisemitic abuse at party meetings where he was called "child killer", "Zio scum", and "Tory Jew" as well as being told "Hitler was right" and that he was "good with money".
    Another who witnessed a comment at a ward meeting that "the only reason we have prostitutes in Seven Sisters is because of the Jews".
    One member reported that other members defended an individual when they said it was "over-representation of Jews in the capitalist ruling class that gives the Israel-Zionist lobby its power".
    A parliamentary candidate who described a councillor being told by a fellow member to go home and count their money after being deselected.
    A speaker at a fringe event at the 2017 Labour conference asserting the right to discuss whether the Holocaust happened.
    One respondent reported that the membership secretary in South Tottenham, north London, objected to 25 applications for membership from the ultra-Orthodox Jewish community, and required home visits to these prospective members' houses.

They have seventy sworn witness statements from current and former staff members at Labour HQ. At best there is institutional racism that is failing to deal with these issues. I think people would care more and dismiss less if this was happening to any other minority group.

I don't know if a Corbynism without Corbyn Labour Party would do better. And the big, structural issue for Labour, is how does Labour win an election without Scotland?

One theory was Scotland wanted a more left-wing alternative, but they've got Corbyn, they have a Corbyn-backing leader of Scottish Labour and they're still collapsing in favour of a centrist/populist party like the SNP. I feel like to win Labour need a majority in England (which I think last happened in 2001). At the minute I feel like the best Labour can hope for is if they get to about 250-260 seats then I can see a minority or coalition government forming (but then the prospect of a Labour coalition with SNP and Plaid was, according to people on all sides, the turning point for Cameron in 2015).

[Josquius]

Ack. It was Owen Smith. Why on earth am I saying Watson.

Nobody denies anti semitism exists in the labour party.
But that corbyn is part of it is just not true. There's a whole heap of other stuff that sticks to him too. Just look at that fake London Bridge tweet and how quickly it was lapped up.

Agreed any future labour government will likely involve the snp. Could be a good stepping stone towards Labour putting country before party and the UK becoming a democracy?

[Sheilbh]

I don't think it matter if Corbyn's anti-semitic. If you keep on accidentally inviting anti-semitic speakers onto your platform, or writing forewards to anti-semitic books, or inviting to speak at your events men who believe in the blood libel. Then either you're anti-semitic or you're negligent about it. I don't think it matters which.

And there is anti-semitism in Labour that there wasn't four years ago - the question is why. In my view the difference is him.

[Tamas]

Tyr, I doubt very much the Labour average wants nationalised companies run by local soviets. This is far left lunacy that will never win.

[Josquius]

Tyr, I doubt very much the Labour average wants nationalised companies run by local soviets. This is far left lunacy that will never win.

Nor do they want to invade France, build a giant rocket to send half the population to the moon, or to make it mandatory everyone wears a hat made of cheddar.

I'm not getting the point here however as none of these things are policy.

Research does suggest a majority of the country  in favour of the sort of standard nationalisation that is labour policy however

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2017/05/19/nationalisation-vs-privatisation-public-view

[Richard Hakluyt]

I don't think it matter if Corbyn's anti-semitic. If you keep on accidentally inviting anti-semitic speakers onto your platform, or writing forewards to anti-semitic books, or inviting to speak at your events men who believe in the blood libel. Then either you're anti-semitic or you're negligent about it. I don't think it matters which.

And there is anti-semitism in Labour that there wasn't four years ago - the question is why. In my view the difference is him.

The "Jews don't get English irony" comment was pretty damning; as if they had arrived on the boat last thursday rather than being a long-established part of English society.

[Sheilbh]

Yeah. I found that a fairly telling remark.

Again if it was (almost) any other minority group there'd be uproar. Which isn't to minimise Tory issues with Islamophobia, because I think Muslims are an other group where you can get away with more. One thing I've found quite nice in a weird, sad way is the total solidarity Jewish and Muslim groups have had with each other in confronting issues in both parties.

[Syt]

[The Brain]

Jefferson High are our rivals!

[grumbler]

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2017/05/19/nationalisation-vs-privatisation-public-view

So...

May 19, 2017, 7:36 AM

Making policy based on data 30 months old is not wise.

[Josquius]

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2017/05/19/nationalisation-vs-privatisation-public-view

So...

May 19, 2017, 7:36 AM

Making policy based on data 30 months old is not wise.

What has changed drastically since then to noticeably shift these views?

It's a fairly consistent trend before and after 2017

https://fullfact.org/economy/do-public-want-railways-renationalised/

https://news.sky.com/story/majority-of-brits-back-rail-nationalisation-sky-data-poll-shows-11193313

https://leftfootforward.org/2019/01/poll-shows-huge-support-for-rail-nationalisation-even-from-tory-voters/.

[crazy canuck]

I've got no dog in that fight, but I'm curious how you would pick the consumer representative(s), and how he or she (or hym or they) would go about choosing how to vote on matters before the board.

Yeah. I've no idea how you make it work without just being captured by activists and fringe issues.

But as I say the issue you have producer capture of an industry. So the consumer has no choice and it ultimately ends up serving the interests of management and/or the workers. I'm not sure the government should be intervening to champion consumers (and they'll be subject to capture too).

I wonder if instead of consumer board representation a sort-of consumer ombudsman might work?

Yeah, it is a lot to put on the shoulder of whoever the representatives might be on the board.  The better model is to create a regulator who has the resources to ensure the public interest is served.

[Liep]

When will this end?

[Sheilbh]

They really are a lot better at online content.

[Tamas]

As Yi mentioned, last week or so The Economist had a very good article on how capturing stuff by activists is probably EXACTLY what Labour intends. That's how the far left has captured the party, and they aim to replicate this with the country as a whole.