Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[The Larch]

London devolution?

[Valmy]

London devolution?

London's government got overhauled in the 1980s and 1990s, he might be referring to that. I just remember it was this big thing when London elected its first mayor about 20 years ago or so.

[garbon]

London devolution?

London's government got overhauled in the 1980s and 1990s, he might be referring to that. I just remember it was this big thing when London elected its first mayor about 20 years ago or so.

London lost its authority in the 80s as it had been the head of a council and then yeah got power back again in the 2000s.

[The Larch]

But that's not really devolution. My understanding was that Thatcher abolished London's local government in the 80s as part of a political struggle with Labour, which controlled it, and it was only brought back to an unitary form of government in 2000.

[Josquius]

London government has far more power than that of any other local council.

[The Larch]

London government has far more power than that of any other local council.

Which is pretty normal for large metropolitan areas, it's still not really devolution.

[Josquius]

I think Tyr has a good point that Federal states have advantages.

I agree that Federal states have advantages;  just didn't expect him to realize/acknowledge it.

Why?
It's pretty consistent with my core beliefs

London government has far more power than that of any other local council.

Which is pretty normal for large metropolitan areas, it's still not really devolution.

It wasn't normal in the UK for many years either.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devolution_in_the_United_Kingdom#Greater_London

If we go full federal UK its pretty certain London will be one of the regions.

[Richard Hakluyt]

But that's not really devolution. My understanding was that Thatcher abolished London's local government in the 80s as part of a political struggle with Labour, which controlled it, and it was only brought back to an unitary form of government in 2000.

This was one of Thatcher's more irritating moves. The previous Tory government had reorganised the local government areas, which had not been done for a thousand years or so. The most important change was that the major metropolitan areas got their own unified authorities (Greater London, Greater Manchester, Merseyside, Tyneside etc). These new authorities were Labour strongholds by default (with the partial exception of London); they started using their powers in ways that she didn't like.........subsidised public transport for example. So she abolished the metropolitan counties and local government was limited to the boroughs (far weaker and only 200k or so people each).

So municipal socialism, heavily favoured by the population of these areas, was made impossible by her partisan move.

[The Larch]

But that's not really devolution. My understanding was that Thatcher abolished London's local government in the 80s as part of a political struggle with Labour, which controlled it, and it was only brought back to an unitary form of government in 2000.

This was one of Thatcher's more irritating moves. The previous Tory government had reorganised the local government areas, which had not been done for a thousand years or so. The most important change was that the major metropolitan areas got their own unified authorities (Greater London, Greater Manchester, Merseyside, Tyneside etc). These new authorities were Labour strongholds by default (with the partial exception of London); they started using their powers in ways that she didn't like.........subsidised public transport for example. So she abolished the metropolitan counties and local government was limited to the boroughs (far weaker and only 200k or so people each).

So municipal socialism, heavily favoured by the population of these areas, was made impossible by her partisan move.

Wow, I did not know the details, that's extremely petty, to abolish an entire layer of government because it does things you disagree with.

[Richard Hakluyt]

Her entire record with local government was abysmal.

Towards the end of her premiership she abolished the rates (a tax on real estate used to fund local government expenditure) and replaced it with the poll tax (a flat rate charge per adult taking no account of income or wealth). There were many protests and a bit of minor rioting so the Tories got rid of her and replaced her with John Major. Major got rid of the poll tax and replaced it with a watered-down property tax...the council tax. To ensure that the new tax was complied with it was set at a low level; which meant that only about 20% of local expenditure was raised locally. The consequence of that was that Councils' had greatly reduced freedom to spend money how they wanted and became less independent.

Meaningful service on a town council had been an important route for many "ordinary" people to enter politics. Being a mere functionary of central government was far less attractive so the quality of councillors declined and more of them were party hacks. This led to a reduction in class diversity in the House of Commons as more and more of them came from lawyering or a spell as a SPAD. Which , of course, is why we are in our current mess and the Commons has no conception of how 52% of the population think.

[celedhring]

But that's not really devolution. My understanding was that Thatcher abolished London's local government in the 80s as part of a political struggle with Labour, which controlled it, and it was only brought back to an unitary form of government in 2000.

This was one of Thatcher's more irritating moves. The previous Tory government had reorganised the local government areas, which had not been done for a thousand years or so. The most important change was that the major metropolitan areas got their own unified authorities (Greater London, Greater Manchester, Merseyside, Tyneside etc). These new authorities were Labour strongholds by default (with the partial exception of London); they started using their powers in ways that she didn't like.........subsidised public transport for example. So she abolished the metropolitan counties and local government was limited to the boroughs (far weaker and only 200k or so people each).

So municipal socialism, heavily favoured by the population of these areas, was made impossible by her partisan move.

Wow, I did not know the details, that's extremely petty, to abolish an entire layer of government because it does things you disagree with.

Same happened here in the 1980s with Barcelona's metro authority, which was a socialist stronghold, and which was abolished by the conservative nationalists in the regional government. They were afraid that Greater Barcelona would become a counter power to the regional government, so they nipped it in the bud.

It was partially restored in 2011 after the nationalists for the first time won the Barcelona city council (which they lost again in 2015), so at the time they would control it. The whole affair was so cynically partisan.

[The Brain]

People are people everywhere. The specifics might vary, but people generally think higher of themselves than they deserve. Northern Swedes and northern English alike.

Not sure what that has to do with whether a Federal state should be preferred, or not, over Unitary state.  I think Tyr has a good point that Federal states have advantages.

The point is that Threvial and the Brain are from the advantaged regions close to the capital, and thus look down on those in the periphery - be it Northern Sweden or the Midlands.

He might be, I'm from rural southern Sweden, Countryside outside Varberg.

I'm from central Stockholm. You smell rural.

[Threviel]

People are people everywhere. The specifics might vary, but people generally think higher of themselves than they deserve. Northern Swedes and northern English alike.

Not sure what that has to do with whether a Federal state should be preferred, or not, over Unitary state.  I think Tyr has a good point that Federal states have advantages.

The point is that Threvial and the Brain are from the advantaged regions close to the capital, and thus look down on those in the periphery - be it Northern Sweden or the Midlands.

He might be, I'm from rural southern Sweden, Countryside outside Varberg.

I'm from central Stockholm. You smell rural.

Du är säkert KTHare också din fan.

[The Brain]

People are people everywhere. The specifics might vary, but people generally think higher of themselves than they deserve. Northern Swedes and northern English alike.

Not sure what that has to do with whether a Federal state should be preferred, or not, over Unitary state.  I think Tyr has a good point that Federal states have advantages.

The point is that Threvial and the Brain are from the advantaged regions close to the capital, and thus look down on those in the periphery - be it Northern Sweden or the Midlands.

He might be, I'm from rural southern Sweden, Countryside outside Varberg.

I'm from central Stockholm. You smell rural.

Du är säkert KTHare också din fan.

No slöjdskola for me!

[Threviel]

People are people everywhere. The specifics might vary, but people generally think higher of themselves than they deserve. Northern Swedes and northern English alike.

Not sure what that has to do with whether a Federal state should be preferred, or not, over Unitary state.  I think Tyr has a good point that Federal states have advantages.

The point is that Threvial and the Brain are from the advantaged regions close to the capital, and thus look down on those in the periphery - be it Northern Sweden or the Midlands.

He might be, I'm from rural southern Sweden, Countryside outside Varberg.

I'm from central Stockholm. You smell rural.

Du är säkert KTHare också din fan.

No slöjdskola for me!

Kallar ni Chalmers det? Ja just det, det började ju så en gång.