Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Richard Hakluyt]

The track is currently held by the public sector, it proved impossible to run it except as a public utility :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railtrack

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_Rail

So railway companies bid for franchises to run trains on the public network. There is nothing to stop a workers' cooperative bidding. As regards nationalisation I suppose we could have a halfway house where a state-owned rail firm bid for franchises 

[Tamas]

But the basic problem is that a state-owned railroad company, especially above a certain size, has no concern for efficiency, because it is the epitome of too big to fail, and thus have access to the limitless bag of money that is the state budget. Add powerful unions who need to be bought off regularly, and you are just about set on the course for gross mismanagement and waste.

[celedhring]

IIRC from 2020 onwards the EU mandates that national rails must be opened up to competition, so go Brexit 

My opinion on privatization is that I have big doubts that mass transit can be profitable, while at the same time achieving the things mass transit is supposed to achieve (high frequency and low price) in order to be effective. For example, privately operated bus lines are awful down here, regarding frequency and punctuality.

[Josquius]

IIRC from 2020 onwards the EU mandates that national rails must be opened up to competition, so go Brexit 

My opinion on privatization is that I have big doubts that mass transit can be profitable, while at the same time achieving the things mass transit is supposed to achieve (high frequency and low price) in order to be effective. For example, privately operated bus lines are awful down here, regarding frequency and punctuality.

UKIP used that one during the debate to try and ensnare leftists; that eu rules made nationalised railways illegal.
It's rubbish though. All it says is rails have to be open to others. Not that you can't have a core nationalised railway. Basically just mandating that all countries have to accept open access companies.

[celedhring]

IIRC from 2020 onwards the EU mandates that national rails must be opened up to competition, so go Brexit 

My opinion on privatization is that I have big doubts that mass transit can be profitable, while at the same time achieving the things mass transit is supposed to achieve (high frequency and low price) in order to be effective. For example, privately operated bus lines are awful down here, regarding frequency and punctuality.

UKIP used that one during the debate to try and ensnare leftists; that eu rules made nationalised railways illegal.
It's rubbish though. All it says is rails have to be open to others. Not that you can't have a core nationalised railway. Basically just mandating that all countries have to accept open access companies.

I'm not that knowledgeable of the particulars, but somehow I doubt the EU is going to have subsidized public railways competing against non-subsidized private ones.

[Josquius]

The key thinking is about cross border services.

Logically why would the eu vote to get rid of nationalised railways when so many of their members, including a few big ones, have them.

[PJL]

Hope this doesn't damage his otherwise 100% correct point.

What, the dumb idea of a general re-nationalisation of the railways?

Going back to British Rail days would be a disaster for my local line; while I agree it wasn't done in the correct way you'll never convince me to support re-nationalisation over privatisation. More consolidation, perhaps, along with passing the responsibility of track maintenance to the companies actually using the line, but not re-nationalisation.

Yes, I take your point about the lack of investment for some lines pre-privatisation - but my line, despite being a significant commuter line into London, was treated as a distant third priority long before the investment rate lagged. Privatisation's visible effect for my line has been better trains, more trains and more direct route destinations.

Incidentally, the same is true of the buses - despite the cuts over the last few years I still have twice as many buses to choose from when travelling between my village/town and the nearest shopping town than I had pre-privatisation, plus a better service to the second choice local shopping town; in fact, I've been very impressed with the way Stagecoach has been juggling the cuts while keeping local services running in my area of the County. They've been quite imaginative, in fact, in combining routes to cut buses and costs while maintaining services.

Are you actually old enough to properly remember what the nationalised services were like? You're about 10 years younger than me, aren't you?

The main reason why the privitised railways are doing better than the old British Rail is that the government is willing to subsidies more of it. Had BR been given the same level of support, I'm sure it would have done a lot better as well.

[The Brain]

I dare not think how crappy Swedish railways would be if there was no competition.

[Sheilbh]

The key thinking is about cross border services.

Logically why would the eu vote to get rid of nationalised railways when so many of their members, including a few big ones, have them.

The issue isn't banning nationalised railways but issues around the re-nationalisation of railways. My understanding is there would be issues with state aid rules - I think Miliband's way involved of allowing the DfT to bid for franchises would be the only way around it. But given that lots of our railways are run, for profit, by overseas state owned companies there's a lot for them to lose.

[Sheilbh]

Weirdly I do feel this may actually cause problems for Corbyn. I've always thought he looks thin-skinned but this is ridiculous
http://news.sky.com/video/corbyn-feisty-over-virgin-train-seat-row-10549717

Also think the Sadiq endorsement is significant. It strikes me as odd that a senior politician as canny as Sadiq, who doesn't need to endorse anyone, would endorse someone unless he thought they had a chance of winning 

So I may well start hedging my Corbyn will win assumption.....

Edit: Incidentally on Labour chaos, they may not have a conference for the first time since the twenties:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/24/labour-conference-could-be-cancelled-over-security-row-says-unite

[Agelastus]

The main reason why the privitised railways are doing better than the old British Rail is that the government is willing to subsidies more of it. Had BR been given the same level of support, I'm sure it would have done a lot better as well.

Subsidy to the rail companies (in £ per passenger km) is back down to roughly the levels of the nadir of British Rail after soaring after Hatfield, and is also significantly lower than that of, for example, France or Germany. There are fundamental limitations to the restrictive British Loading Gauge that limits just how much the rail franchises can do via trains alone. Many of the most crowded lines are at saturation point with the additional trains they are running compared to the British Rail days.

You and Tyr should have tried living on a line that British Rail left a distant third or more place in priorities from inception as my family did before being all nostalgic for the nationalised past of our railways.

It's interesting to note that as of 2013, despite the apparent desire of the British public for renationalisation, that our railways were both the safest in Europe and had one of the highest satisfaction ratings according to the EU (compare Britain's 78% rating with Germany's 51% for example; didn't Tyr above hold up Germany as an example of success... )

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What has helped the rail franchises significantly is changes in the way Railtrack is funded - and the original report regarding privatisation stated there was no successful example of a track infrastructure business making profit. Railtrack/it's predecessor itself should never have been out of public ownership (and in many ways never truly was, Gordon Brown just wanted the debt "off the books" because of his public adherence to the "Golden Rule", albeit over a continuously moving period) while constituted in the form of a solely infrastructure company.

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As for Corbyn's contortions today...

"I needed two seats together so I could sit with my wife" works better as an excuse when the CCTV of one of the carriages you went through to get to the right place to film your little stunt doesn't show five or six pairs of empty seats with no reserved markers on them in clear view.

And how often does he travel by rail anyway? You always check the reserved ticket seats as you'll almost always find some seats where -

(a) the passengers they were reserved for should have got on two stations ago so now they're free,

or

(b) the passengers they are reserved for aren't due to get on until a station or more past your stop.

[garbon]

(compare Britain's 78% rating with Germany's 51% for example; didn't Tyr above hold up Germany as an example of success... )

Germans are generally pretty critical though.

When my train was running late in Germany, I got an email informing me that I'd miss my connection and a proposed alternate route for no extra charge. In the UK...

[garbon]

And how often does he travel by rail anyway? You always check the reserved ticket seats as you'll almost always find some seats where -

(a) the passengers they were reserved for should have got on two stations ago so now they're free,

or

(b) the passengers they are reserved for aren't due to get on until a station or more past your stop.

Yeah the generally done thing if you don't have a reservation.

[Sheilbh]

Also if you're caught in an easily disproved fabrication admit it. Say 'we went down the train for a photo shoot and we're sorry for misleading anyone, but we were trying to draw attention to x important issue....yadda yadda yadda'.

Don't just repeatedly double down

[Barrister]

Also if you're caught in an easily disproved fabrication admit it. Say 'we went down the train for a photo shoot and we're sorry for misleading anyone, but we were trying to draw attention to x important issue....yadda yadda yadda'.

Don't just repeatedly double down

Sure - you say "we've had this problem in the past, but the day we were going to film the video there were actually seats available".