Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[HVC]

Seems weird to paint a both in theory and practice universalist religion like Islam as being about race.

While not wholly or solely based on the colour it does play a part in the hate of muslims. Hate is simplistic. I mean the sikhs attacked after 9/11 probably felt their skin colour had something to do with their beatings.

In any case etymology is weak moral defense. Norges meaning was obvious.

And Norge, if it makes any difference, my dislike of greens has nothing to do with who votes for them

[Sheilbh]

I think Muslims (including people who are not Muslim but "appear" Muslim) experience discrimination, both on a structural and sort of "everyday" level that is somewhat analogous to racism. I think that's what Islamophobia usefully describes.

I think it's a huge problem in Europe, including the UK. I think part of the problem is that in the framing of it I think we are downstream of the US - part of this is simply that in the US there are people who have thought through aspects of racism more and have expressed that. But I think that does mean that some of the framing is from the American experience which I think understandably centres on anti-black racism and white supremacy in the context of a slave society. Whereas I think Islamophobia is as important to the development of European identities (I think the Islamic world is, to use the overly-academic phrase, Europe's constitutive other) - and interacts with race - but I don't think we have had the same level of thought (or activism actually) in this area. So the framing that can apply sometimes fits uneasily and in a way that can give European bigots a bit of an out.

Is it right to call Islamophobia racism? Probably not. Is that definitional argument much more than angels dancing on the head of a pin? Not really.

Edit: I'd add the leading anti-Islamophobia group in the UK (equivalent to the Community Safety Trust) condemned the Green ads as promoting sectarian division. As I mentioned and garbon flagged all the big parties have some record of this - I don't think it will lead anywhere good if the parties are playing with that stuff every 4-5 years because a vote's a vote.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Racial theory is pretty bunk to begin with--but I would note the left is guilty of leaning on it pretty commonly, like we saw in this very thread when people immediately retrench to racist arguments about a non-race based religion like Islam.

I think there's still a lot of racism on the right, of course--and a more virulent type in most cases. But there's a lot of left wing ideas that actually enshrine racial theory in a negative way--particularly in affirmative action programs, race quotas etc.

[Razgovory]

Seems more weird to think there are races.

Racism is real, but races are not scientifically real.  But ancestry is also real.

[Razgovory]

Seems weird to paint a both in theory and practice universalist religion like Islam as being about race.

While not wholly or solely based on the colour it does play a part in the hate of muslims. Hate is simplistic. I mean the sikhs attacked after 9/11 probably felt their skin colour had something to do with their beatings.

In any case etymology is weak moral defense. Norges meaning was obvious.

And Norge, if it makes any difference, my dislike of greens has nothing to do with who votes for them

No, hate is rather complicated and while it's clear what Norge meant, he is simply incorrect.  

[OttoVonBismarck]

A big blind spot I find in this topic is Europe has become so secular-extremist that people struggle to understand or admit that much of what we call Western culture was built by Christianity.

That isn't to say you have to be religiously Christian to be Western, but I think it is hard to not be culturally Christian and be Western. I also think due to Europe's extreme secularism, they have difficulty admitting that Islam has always been outside of Christendom definitionally.

From a meta perspective this doesn't mean the Islamic world is intrinsically bad and the Western world is intrinsically good. My personal take is Western culture is intrinsically superior to Islamic culture, but it's not some law of nature, that falls upon the simple level of "personal opinion." And much of that personal opinion is predicated on the fact that I am of the West, I was raised in this culture, and it is quite normal that the values I hold are better expressed in that culture than in an entirely different cultural system. I am not at all surprised that the vast majority of people in the Islamic world view their world as superior to the Western world (commonly calling us decadent and numerous other things, some of which have elements of truth in them.)

For we children of the West, the Western world is ours, it is that from which we emerged. The Islamic world is not part of that. In modern times the Islamic world does not have to be an enemy of the West, but the practical reality is that it is an enemy of the West. Maybe some day that ancient conflict will simmer down and the two worlds can live in greater harmony, but that time is not today, despite the idealism Euro secularists often seem to hold on this topic.

A simple point--the situation in Gaza has fuck all to do with either the United Kingdom, France, or the United States, in a broad sense. The reason people care is because on some level everyone accepts what I have long said--this is a front line in the battle between two cultures, Western culture and Islamic culture.

That's why you find support for Palestinians so entrenched among lefties who are often innately anti-Western (despite being the corrupted children of the West.) It is why you find Muslim university students in the West--most of whom probably don't attend mosque on Friday and who probably live in a very Western way in their personal lives, are so pro-Palestinian even if they have no direct connection to Palestine. While they may have adopted some trappings of the West, they too recognize intrinsically this is a front line in the West vs Islam battle, and as children of Islamic culture they still identify with it.

[Valmy]

This was a rout and clearly was not because Muslims got propagandized into voting Green. The message is that Labour is failing and failing to take care of their left flank.

Seems weird to paint a both in theory and practice universalist religion like Islam as being about race.

Sure. But I don't know much about how Islam works in practice in Britain. In theory I would also be very much opposed to Judaism if its rules were literally enforced, but it doesn't work that way in practice.

[Norgy]

God, you are such a Tom Holland, OvB. And not the actor.

"Western" culture being one is rather a bold and sweeping look at the world. Quite similar to the pre-1945 view that Germanic "culture" was one. Let's just be honest and call it xenophobia and victim-blaming on a large scale with cream and sprinkles on top. And forget that most wars between the Hussite war until Napoleon were fought over religious matters at least in name. Well, in Europe. I don't know what you colonial people did with your stones and tobacco. As you seem to be descended from those people in your nativism. Did you know we had multiple Christianities during that time? Like, thesis-synthesis and all that?

The practical reality is not that Islam is the "enemy of the West", as you claim, Otto. Some countries are useful allies, right? Like the UAE. Saudi Arabia. Rather that your own class of Christian fundamentalists (in name, not in practice, as you personally probably haven't done a Christian thing ever) have become the enemies of democracy and pluralism in your collusion with Russia and being deep-throated by Israel. And the further your class invests in the idea of Russia and Israel being great examples of "The Western values" or "Judeo-Christian values", the more your values stray from whatever the "West" is.

I was raised in a working class Christian home. I personally do not believe in a biblical God. The bible is interesting. But using it as a framework for anything else than discussions about how it itself came about, that is non-Western.
That is doctrinal authoritarianism.

And "the West" stood against that in 1949. Until 1991.

[Valmy]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cp8rjk02r0jt?post=asset%3A987efb98-a9ae-4094-98bf-b13265336e25#post

Reform UK chair David Bull is the latest political figure to react to claims made overnight by election monitoring group Democracy Volunteers that they witnessed so-called family voting during the Gorton and Denton by-election (see our last post for more details).

Bull tells Radio 4's Today programme that family voting - where a family member is seen to be influencing somebody else's vote - is "illegal" and "should be stamped out".

When asked if he beleives this changed the outcome of the by-election result, he says: "If I'm being candid probably not."

"I think it's really important that we stand back and look at all of this with cool, clear heads. We've all been up all night, and so any rash decision would be a bad decision, in my humble opinion."

Looking ahead to the May local elections, Bull says Reform are expecting to do "extremely well", and anticipate "a turquoise sea" of wins across the country.

I don't understand. We are not allowed to talk to our family members about politics because it might influence them?

And unless Labour gets it together Reform will sweep to many victories across the country. The only sliver of hope I have is that the British economy seems to be turning around...though I fear we are barreling towards another global economic crisis. Mostly fueled by my country. Sorry world.

[garbon]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cp8rjk02r0jt?post=asset%3A987efb98-a9ae-4094-98bf-b13265336e25#post

Reform UK chair David Bull is the latest political figure to react to claims made overnight by election monitoring group Democracy Volunteers that they witnessed so-called family voting during the Gorton and Denton by-election (see our last post for more details).

Bull tells Radio 4's Today programme that family voting - where a family member is seen to be influencing somebody else's vote - is "illegal" and "should be stamped out".

When asked if he beleives this changed the outcome of the by-election result, he says: "If I'm being candid probably not."

"I think it's really important that we stand back and look at all of this with cool, clear heads. We've all been up all night, and so any rash decision would be a bad decision, in my humble opinion."

Looking ahead to the May local elections, Bull says Reform are expecting to do "extremely well", and anticipate "a turquoise sea" of wins across the country.

I don't understand. We are not allowed to talk to our family members about politics because it might influence them?

And unless Labour gets it together Reform will sweep to many victories across the country. The only sliver of hope I have is that the British economy seems to be turning around...though I fear we are barreling towards another global economic crisis. Mostly fueled by my country. Sorry world.

It means like if you and your wife went into polling booth together which could be one of you pressuring the other on who to vote for.