Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Sheilbh]

All my last point is, is basically that diversity - both religious and ethnic - is here. It's embedded in our public life and it's irreversible. Nothing more.

I certainly don't believe that progress (to the extent it exists) or any direction in politics is necessarily inevitable

Edit: And incidentally I still think the election of Obama was a huge and important moment, even if Trump follows.

[PJL]

All my last point is, is basically that diversity - both religious and ethnic - is here. It's embedded in our public life and it's irreversible. Nothing more.

I certainly don't believe that progress (to the extent it exists) or any direction in politics is necessarily inevitable

Your second point invalidates the first though. If progress is not inevitable then diversity can be reveresable.

[Josquius]

Positive change often brings reactionary backlash though this is a short term thing. The desperate thrashing of dying ideas. As seen with trump their very nature inevitably alienates the moderates they required to claim power.

[Sheilbh]

Your second point invalidates the first though. If progress is not inevitable then diversity can be reveresable.

Maybe I'm just not sure more diversity = progress. It might just as much mean Yousaf wanting to break up the country, or Sunak's sound money Brexit-backing Toryism, or Kemi Badenoch as next Tory leader (or - the madness of Suella Braverman being the country's most prominent Buddhist ). It could also mean soft left politics like Khan or Labour centrism like Sarwar.

I'm not super sold on the idea of progress at all (strikes me as a little too comforting). But I don't think they necessarily go hand in hand. I think diversity across public life (which is, in many ways, really just catching up with British society) is a good thing on its own terms.

Edit: And of course Yousaf, Sarwar and Sunak were all privately educated, so change in one way but very much plus ca change in others.

[Josquius]

More relevantly... It is interesting to see the cracks between the proper nationalists in every sense and the Scottish socialists really opening up.
Could we see a full break up far sooner than expected? - it was always inevitable post independence or perhaps even after voting reform. But this is early. And it was all such a minor bit of book keeping with the gender law that seems to have done it.

[Sheilbh]

I don't really agree with the Guardian description of Kate Forbes as a social and fiscal conservative - especially on her economic views.

Not really sure I'd describe Yousaf or Sturgeon (or for that matter Salmond who was behind the scenes backing Regan and/or Forbes) as socialists - not even sure I'd say they're social democrats to be honest.

[mongers]

So a new posh bloke in Scotland is set to take on an even posher bloke in England/London; remind me again what exactly has changed here? 

[Tamas]

Your second point invalidates the first though. If progress is not inevitable then diversity can be reveresable.

Maybe I'm just not sure more diversity = progress. It might just as much mean Yousaf wanting to break up the country, or Sunak's sound money Brexit-backing Toryism, or Kemi Badenoch as next Tory leader (or - the madness of Suella Braverman being the country's most prominent Buddhist ). It could also mean soft left politics like Khan or Labour centrism like Sarwar.

I'm not super sold on the idea of progress at all (strikes me as a little too comforting). But I don't think they necessarily go hand in hand. I think diversity across public life (which is, in many ways, really just catching up with British society) is a good thing on its own terms.

Edit: And of course Yousaf, Sarwar and Sunak were all privately educated, so change in one way but very much plus ca change in others.

I think diversity as in the sense of minorities being allowed (not just in a legal sense but in terms of societal resistance) to succeed and rise to prominence IS progress. Through acquaintances I know that facing racial slurs from strangers if you are any kind of a non-white person is still a thing in this country so there is certainly room for improvement there, ergo having a diverse leadership is progressive and good. But that doesn't mean that everyone who is part of a minority being allowed a chance thanks to that progress will be progressive in outlook or policies.

[Josquius]

I don't really agree with the Guardian description of Kate Forbes as a social and fiscal conservative - especially on her economic views.

Not really sure I'd describe Yousaf or Sturgeon (or for that matter Salmond who was behind the scenes backing Regan and/or Forbes) as socialists - not even sure I'd say they're social democrats to be honest.

I don't mean they themselves and rather more the party members and the lines that were drawn.

Also social democrat is a type of socialist.

[Sheilbh]

I think diversity as in the sense of minorities being allowed (not just in a legal sense but in terms of societal resistance) to succeed and rise to prominence IS progress.

I have liked all the gags (apparently kicking off on Asian British family WhatsApps today) about how we now have an Indian PM and Pakistani FM getting into an argument about partitioning Britain

Through acquaintances I know that facing racial slurs from strangers if you are any kind of a non-white person is still a thing in this country so there is certainly room for improvement there, ergo having a diverse leadership is progressive and good. But that doesn't mean that everyone who is part of a minority being allowed a chance thanks to that progress will be progressive in outlook or policies.

Yeah - I think on slurs there has been a huge shift in the last 30-40 years. But it still exists and there is no doubt in my mind that it's something all of those leaders have personally experienced.

[Syt]

My English textbook (made in the 70s) did discuss Pakistanis living in the UK, and had a short story about how "Paki" wasn't an appropriate term/how people were prejudiced (via the POV of a white Brit visiting a Pakistani friend's family for dinner).

[Sheilbh]

My English textbook (made in the 70s) did discuss Pakistanis living in the UK, and had a short story about how "Paki" wasn't an appropriate term/how people were prejudiced (via the POV of a white Brit visiting a Pakistani friend's family for dinner).

Yeah. In my view from a UK perspective it's the equivalent of the n-word. I'd just never use it. It's fairly common in the UK when I've seen it in the press to be phrased the "p-word" in a similar way.

But maybe that's just because of the British experience and the word doesn't carry the weight it has here in other contexts, I don't know.

Edit: Obviously racists aren't the most aware so it wasn't just used to Pakistanis but to anyone with South Asian heritage. As I say Sunak was born in 1980, Yousaf in 1985 - there's no doubt in my mind that it's a slur they've both experienced.

[Josquius]

I do remember a decade or so ago there was a reclaim our word attempt but that seems to have died out. The p word is indeed up there with the n word for stuff you do not say.
Which is strange because Pak is the standard acronym and not a huge jump. But then some even say Jap is offensive - that one does seem to be dying out as a slur though.

I think with language a lot of it is generational. For instance growing up gay was a standard word one used to mean crap. You need not be homophobic, it was just a standard part of the language.
 As an adult I worked to knock it out of my lexicon but it's understandable that older people may not be so careful about such things. As they die off though so too should casual usage of slurs.

I do like the India and Pakistan partitioning Britain bit
And 1985? Holy shit he does not look that young. I'm bloody old and I've failed at life.

[Sheilbh]

I think with language a lot of it is generational. For instance growing up gay was a standard word one used to mean crap. You need not be homophobic, it was just a standard part of the language.
 As an adult I worked to knock it out of my lexicon but it's understandable that older people may not be so careful about such things. As they die off though so too should casual usage of slurs.

You need not be homophobic but it reflects a homophobic society/homophobia in society.

And 1985? Holy shit he does not look that young. I'm bloody old and I've failed at life.

They're getting dangerously young. I don't like it

[Syt]

Out of curiosity looked a bit at what English textbooks in Germany now look like. They still have the usual thing of picking kids as "main characters" for students to latch onto but the cast has become a lot more diverse since I was taught with the "Clark Family".



My books:





Can only find the covers, though. I recall later editions dealt with serious issues - oil spills, the Wounded Knee Massacre etc.

Couldn't find any old contents, but an old cassette to accompany the books has a track named after the pets of the kids, a budgie, a dog and a cat: "Cheeky, Blacky and Pussy" ...