Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[The Larch]

So, Anglican split incoming between Western nations on one side and developing nations on the other?

This happens fairly regularly - I think it happened over ordination of women priests and bishops too. Breakaways normally end up swimming the Tiber.

To be honest, I had no idea that the Anglican church still had such a global pull.

[Valmy]

So, Anglican split incoming between Western nations on one side and developing nations on the other?

This happens fairly regularly - I think it happened over ordination of women priests and bishops too. Breakaways normally end up swimming the Tiber.

I love that phrase. In the US conservative christians also leave their modernizating denomination for the Orthodox Church and we call it "swimming the Bosphorous."

[Sheilbh]

Yeah - wherever you see a church described as "Episcopalian" they will probably be part of the Anglican Communion. According to Wiki it's the third largest Christian denomination after Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox with about 85 million followers - obviously their presence is basically a map of the British Empire.

And immigration is a big part of the story in the UK too. So there's a large Anglican church in Nigeria and Uganda (the last Archbishop of York was originally from Uganda), for example, and most churches (Catholic, CofE and Pentecostal) in many areas of London reflect the growing African diaspora. There are more churches in London than there were when Thatcher was in charge - primarily reflecting the growth in immigration and the shift in where those diasporas come from.

[The Larch]

I've had to look the phrase up to realize it means converting to Catholicism.

[Sheilbh]

I love that phrase. In the US conservative christians also leave their modernizating denomination for the Orthodox Church and we call it "swimming the Bosphorous."

My mum and dad live next door to a vicar who was Anglican and converted to the Antiochian Orthodox church over women priests in the early 90s

And he has a very small little chapen which, in the middle of rural Dorset, serves the old school Anglicans but also, apparently, has Greeks, Russians, Ukrainians, Romanians etc travelling for miles for the big holidays - which is very sweet.

[Valmy]

I've had to look the phrase up to realize it means converting to Catholicism.

I could be wrong, but I think it only specifically refers to members, and clergy, of the mainline Protestant churches converting to Catholicism. I don't think you would use that term for an Atheist or a Muslim becoming a Catholic.

And it is usually because there is this perception that the Catholic Church is somehow a purer form of Christianity as many of the mainline Protestant churches struggle with modernizing trends. That tempts the reactionary and conservatives to "swim the Tiber".

[HVC]

I thought sheilbh was telling us proties killed people and threw them in a river like the Roman's of old. I can see the Irish doing it

[Sheilbh]

And it is usually because there is this perception that the Catholic Church is somehow a purer form of Christianity as many of the mainline Protestant churches struggle with modernizing trends. That tempts the reactionary and conservatives to "swim the Tiber".

And Benedict created an Anglican Ordinariate witihin the Catholic Church so they could keep some of their liturgy/Anglican traditions - not least because Anglo-Catholics are even more into their smells and bells than Rome

[Josquius]

I love that phrase. In the US conservative christians also leave their modernizating denomination for the Orthodox Church and we call it "swimming the Bosphorous."

My mum and dad live next door to a vicar who was Anglican and converted to the Antiochian Orthodox church over women priests in the early 90s

And he has a very small little chapen which, in the middle of rural Dorset, serves the old school Anglicans but also, apparently, has Greeks, Russians, Ukrainians, Romanians etc travelling for miles for the big holidays - which is very sweet.

I wonder if you get representatives of all the conservative churches going around trying to sell their faith to conservative anglicans.

[Tamas]

I see reason and compromise are still concepts not only alien but downright hostile to the right wing of the Tories. Sunak won't survive (politically) trying to settle the NI situation.

Rees Mogg PM before May this year. You heard it here first.

[The Brain]

The statement, signed by 10 primates, said:

Maybe they should have let Inclusive Minds take a look at the article before publication.

[The Larch]

Who is going to be the first one to tell her?

[Josquius]

Who is going to be the first one to tell her?

An argument for Brexit that I can fully get on board with. A key problem with the EU was that it wasn't big enough!

[Sheilbh]

Really not seeing the EU as an economic NATO

And even if you buy that - she's talking about China, in Japan and referencing Australia. I think it wouldn't necessarily be bad if Western allies including the EU, but also Canada, Australia, Japan etc were able to cooperate economically to counter China.

Of course the NATO comparison is asinine on its own because the core of NATO is Article 5 - I'm not really sure what the equivalent would be. And the allies need to work out a common approach, which may not be possible: the US wants to keep China from getting higher tech in a way that could threaten the US' position; I think Canada, Australia, Japan etc want increase resilience/support when they face Chinese sanctions/trade restrictions; the EU wants China to play by the rules. Those have a common core but I'm not sure the perspectives are close enough to really coordinate.

[Admiral Yi]

Really not seeing the EU as an economic NATO

And even if you buy that - she's talking about China, in Japan and referencing Australia. I think it wouldn't necessarily be bad if Western allies including the EU, but also Canada, Australia, Japan etc were able to cooperate economically to counter China.

Of course the NATO comparison is asinine on its own because the core of NATO is Article 5 - I'm not really sure what the equivalent would be. And the allies need to work out a common approach, which may not be possible: the US wants to keep China from getting higher tech in a way that could threaten the US' position; I think Canada, Australia, Japan etc want increase resilience/support when they face Chinese sanctions/trade restrictions; the EU wants China to play by the rules. Those have a common core but I'm not sure the perspectives are close enough to really coordinate.

The two cases that I thought really called for a unified response was when China slashed imports of iron ore from Australia in response to an investigation into influence buying and when China locked up those two Canadian "drug smugglers" in response to Canada arresting that Chinese female executive for extradition to the US.  But as you say the devil is in the details.

I do take slight exception to your characterization of the US wanting to improve its position which has the odor of protectionism.  Everything I've read suggests its motivated primarily by security interests.