Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[garbon]

This is going to sound terrible but I am not surprised by Birmingham. Not having been there ever, I only know it from news, which it only makes due to crimes, and in those they usually show mugshots of minorities, which I realise is terrible and unfair optics but it does mean I have not seen a white English person confirmedly hailing from Birmingham The only other time it made the news was the mosque-looking public library, I think.

So you aren't surprised to see data that confirms the view you've been conditioned to hold?

[Tamas]

This is going to sound terrible but I am not surprised by Birmingham. Not having been there ever, I only know it from news, which it only makes due to crimes, and in those they usually show mugshots of minorities, which I realise is terrible and unfair optics but it does mean I have not seen a white English person confirmedly hailing from Birmingham The only other time it made the news was the mosque-looking public library, I think.

So you aren't surprised to see data that confirms the view you've been conditioned to hold?

Correct. But then is the data conditioned as well?

[garbon]

This is going to sound terrible but I am not surprised by Birmingham. Not having been there ever, I only know it from news, which it only makes due to crimes, and in those they usually show mugshots of minorities, which I realise is terrible and unfair optics but it does mean I have not seen a white English person confirmedly hailing from Birmingham The only other time it made the news was the mosque-looking public library, I think.

So you aren't surprised to see data that confirms the view you've been conditioned to hold?

Correct. But then is the data conditioned as well?

I wasn't making such a claim. But I also don't find that someone agrees with data that supports their views to be that noteworthy.

[Tamas]

This is going to sound terrible but I am not surprised by Birmingham. Not having been there ever, I only know it from news, which it only makes due to crimes, and in those they usually show mugshots of minorities, which I realise is terrible and unfair optics but it does mean I have not seen a white English person confirmedly hailing from Birmingham The only other time it made the news was the mosque-looking public library, I think.

So you aren't surprised to see data that confirms the view you've been conditioned to hold?

Correct. But then is the data conditioned as well?

I wasn't making such a claim. But I also don't find that someone agrees with data that supports their views to be that noteworthy.

I just wanted to share my counterpoint to Sheilbh's surprise.

[Sheilbh]

Interesting how English only as national identity collapsed since 2011.

Just to come back to this - while survey design probably had some impact and we can't directly compare it looks like there might be something going on here. From annual population surveys on national identity below, which is slightly counter-intuitive or against the dominant narrative):


I query how much this matters but interesting nonetheless.

Edit: Separately not sure I get the mosque vibes from the Birmingham library? (Though I quite like it):

[Neil]

I could see how someone could I guess, with the design looking faintly Islamic.  It looks more like a stack of Christmas presents to me. 

[Tamas]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/nov/30/buckingham-palace-aide-resigns-black-guest-traumatised-by-repeated-questioning

A member of the Buckingham Palace household has resigned and apologised after a black guest at a reception hosted by the queen consort was left feeling traumatised and violated after allegedly being questioned repeatedly by a royal aide about where she was from.

Ngozi Fulani, the founder of the charity Sistah Space, which provides support for African and Caribbean heritage woman affected by abuse, claimed the aide moved her hair to reveal her name badge. She was then persistently questioned over where her "people" came from, despite having said she was a British national.

The encounter, which took place on Tuesday at a violence against women and girls reception, was witnessed by two other women, Mandu Reid, the leader of the Women's Equality party, who is of mixed-race heritage, and another black female charity representative.

ide: Where are you from?

Me: Sistah Space.

Aide: No, where do you come from?

Me: We're based in Hackney.

Aide: No, what part of Africa are YOU from?

Me: I don't know, they didn't leave any records.

Aide: Well, you must know where you're from, I spent time in France. Where are you from?

Me: Here, UK

Aide: NO, but what Nationality are you?

Me: I am born here and am British.

Aide: No, but where do you really come from, where do your people come from?

Me: 'My people', lady, what is this?

Aide: Oh I can see I am going to have a challenge getting you to say where you're from. When did you first come here?

Me: Lady! I am a British national, my parents came here in the 50s when ...

Aide: Oh, I knew we'd get there in the end, you're Caribbean!

Me: No Lady, I am of African heritage, Caribbean descent and British nationality.

Aide : Oh, so you're from ...

FFS I wonder how many generations it will take for "visible minorities" to be accepted as British. I remember reading once how in Denmark even third-generation immigrants are just "immigrants"

[Josquius]

I think there's a thing there where traditionally (YMMV with today's cunts) hindu is a very "soft" religion, only lightly tied into identity.
This means where 3rd generation Muslims who are about as Muslim as the Pope will still tick the Muslim box as its core to their identity whilst 3rd generation Hindus are just generic no religioners, being Asian is enough to sum up their difference.

Comijng from a Hindu background I can confirm tha this is complete nonsense. 3rd gen Hindus, whether religious or not, identify culturally as Hindu just as much as Muslims do.

I had no idea you were Asian.

I do recall reading there's a decent number of irreligious British Asians and they overwhelmingly come from Hindu rather than Muslim communities with Hindu background people being more likely to be well educated, to intermarry and go all in on integration.

If you've a different explanation then please do tell.

What would you like me to explain?

Relatively low Hindu growth despite India continuing to be a big immigration source.
Muslims of course have far more sources than the sub continent to boost their numbers, but substantially higher they are.

[Sheilbh]

Latest in collapse of basic state capacity/functions I see the prison service has run out of prison cells and is asking the police to use spare cells in police stations.

Just another example of Britain not really doing the basic things people expect the state to be doing any more

[Gups]

I think there's a thing there where traditionally (YMMV with today's cunts) hindu is a very "soft" religion, only lightly tied into identity.
This means where 3rd generation Muslims who are about as Muslim as the Pope will still tick the Muslim box as its core to their identity whilst 3rd generation Hindus are just generic no religioners, being Asian is enough to sum up their difference.

Comijng from a Hindu background I can confirm tha this is complete nonsense. 3rd gen Hindus, whether religious or not, identify culturally as Hindu just as much as Muslims do.

I had no idea you were Asian.

I do recall reading there's a decent number of irreligious British Asians and they overwhelmingly come from Hindu rather than Muslim communities with Hindu background people being more likely to be well educated, to intermarry and go all in on integration.

If you've a different explanation then please do tell.

What would you like me to explain?

Relatively low Hindu growth despite India continuing to be a big immigration source.
Muslims of course have far more sources than the sub continent to boost their numbers, but substantially higher they are.

As I understood it HVC was expressing surprise as to the low number of Hindus not the growth rate.

In any event a rise of 22.2% between 2011 and 2021 does not seem "relatively low" against a general propulation growth of 6.3%.

Unless you mean relatively low compared to the growth in Muslims (44.4%), in which case the better question is surely why the Muslim growth rate is so high. The answer is not because Hinduism is a weakly held religion based on what you remember reading in an article once upon a time.

[HVC]

As I understood it HVC was expressing surprise as to the low number of Hindus not the growth rate.

Indeed. I was under the, apparently erroneous, impression that there were more people of Indian decent in England.

[Sheilbh]

On the BBC - thought this is interesting:

BBC to produce 'lighter' content to attract Britons from poorer backgrounds
Ofcom warns lower socio-economic viewers feel 'persistently underserved' by broadcaster
Jim Waterson Media editor
@jimwaterson
Wed 30 Nov 2022 16.05 GMT
Last modified on Wed 30 Nov 2022 16.07 GMT

The BBC will redirect its television budget to make "lighter" dramas and comedies in the belief they will appeal to Britons from poorer backgrounds.

The broadcaster also said it would try to attract viewers from lower socio-economic groups by making sports documentaries and crime shows, after criticism from Ofcom that these audiences are more likely to watch commercial outlets such as ITV.

While the corporation remains highly valued and used by most Britons, the media regulator found the national broadcaster was struggling to reach people from younger and less privileged backgrounds who have "persistently felt underserved by the BBC".

This potentially undermines the universal licence fee model, where every household consuming any live television or iPlayer services pays £159 a year.

The broadcaster has already brought back BBC Three as a live television channel, six years after making it online-only, in a bid to reach poorer viewers outside London aged 16-34. Ofcom praised BBC Three successes such as RuPaul's Drag Race UK v the World, Conversations with Friends, and Glow Up: Britain's Next Make-Up Star as examples of shows that had done well with younger audiences – but said it was too early to decide whether the move had been worthwhile.

The longrunning hospital drama Holby City was also axed in favour of reviving Rochdale-based school drama Waterloo Road, in an attempt to have more shows made in the north of England.

The report said: "A particular issue we raise this year is that we have found audiences in lower socio-economic groups and disabled audiences continue to be less satisfied with the BBC. This has been the case for a number of years ...

"Those classified as falling within lower socio-economic groups, in particular those referred to as the D and E groups, represent almost a quarter of the UK population. These audiences consume less BBC content and have consistently rated the BBC lower than other audience groups."

As a result, the BBC said it was "commissioning more TV content aimed at C2DE audiences, particularly lighter drama, crime drama and comedy drama, as well as factual entertainment competition formats and sports documentaries". It will also focus on sports via BBC Radio 5 Live and BBC Sounds to reach these groups, alongside some targeted speech and music output on BBC Sounds.

One structural problem the BBC faces is that while older listeners and viewers grew up with the corporation's services and then stuck with the BBC throughout their life, the corporation is struggling to build the same deep bonds at a young age with modern audiences.

Despite investing heavily in podcasts aimed at younger listeners, the number of BBC Sounds users aged 16-34 is flat at 570,000 a week – below the BBC's target. The corporation said it would invest in sports content and other material in order to grow its audio reach among poorer audiences – a category that includes around a quarter of the population.

Despite the long-term challenges, Ofcom said that overall the BBC continued to "perform well" and reached about eight in 10 British adults each week. It is also the UK's primary source of news, reaching 73% of UK adults.

Yet, its audience is smaller among children, potentially setting up further problems for the future. This is partly because while toddlers – and their parents – are big fans of CBeebies, the broadcaster is struggling to convince older kids to watch CBBC programmes rather than YouTube or TikTok. How to lure these audiences back in adulthood is a major concern for a corporation already struggling with a licence fee freeze.

On Wednesday, Ofcom gave permission for the BBC to increase the amount of archive material on its iPlayer streaming service, lifting limits on how much vintage material could be available for streaming. At the moment, most programmes are available only for 12 months after their initial broadcast. However, viewers are unlikely to see a rapid increase in the amount of shows available as the corporation would be likely to have to pay ongoing licensing fees to programme makers to keep old shows available indefinitely.

Always wondered why the BBC doesn't make more of its archive on iPlayer and I thought it was possibly a commercial strategy to ease licensing or issuing DVDs rather than a regulatory constraint.

This is from the Ofcom report:


Clearly is a problem betwen those AB numbers to DE, but it feels like it's one of those things that gets into the argument about the BBC and the licence fee. I support it in general as a principle but it feels like what it needs to do to fulfill its purpose in reaching all the country is produce more commercial style TV which maybe undermines its distinctiveness which is part of the argument for its funding model

It seems like a tough balance to strike?

[garbon]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/nov/30/buckingham-palace-aide-resigns-black-guest-traumatised-by-repeated-questioning

A member of the Buckingham Palace household has resigned and apologised after a black guest at a reception hosted by the queen consort was left feeling traumatised and violated after allegedly being questioned repeatedly by a royal aide about where she was from.

Ngozi Fulani, the founder of the charity Sistah Space, which provides support for African and Caribbean heritage woman affected by abuse, claimed the aide moved her hair to reveal her name badge. She was then persistently questioned over where her "people" came from, despite having said she was a British national.

The encounter, which took place on Tuesday at a violence against women and girls reception, was witnessed by two other women, Mandu Reid, the leader of the Women's Equality party, who is of mixed-race heritage, and another black female charity representative.

ide: Where are you from?

Me: Sistah Space.

Aide: No, where do you come from?

Me: We're based in Hackney.

Aide: No, what part of Africa are YOU from?

Me: I don't know, they didn't leave any records.

Aide: Well, you must know where you're from, I spent time in France. Where are you from?

Me: Here, UK

Aide: NO, but what Nationality are you?

Me: I am born here and am British.

Aide: No, but where do you really come from, where do your people come from?

Me: 'My people', lady, what is this?

Aide: Oh I can see I am going to have a challenge getting you to say where you're from. When did you first come here?

Me: Lady! I am a British national, my parents came here in the 50s when ...

Aide: Oh, I knew we'd get there in the end, you're Caribbean!

Me: No Lady, I am of African heritage, Caribbean descent and British nationality.

Aide : Oh, so you're from ...

FFS I wonder how many generations it will take for "visible minorities" to be accepted as British. I remember reading once how in Denmark even third-generation immigrants are just "immigrants"

Apparently she is an old racist - 83.

[Josquius]

On the BBC - thought this is interesting:
]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FizbyIHX0AAF1S9?format=png&name=small[/img]

Clearly is a problem betwen those AB numbers to DE, but it feels like it's one of those things that gets into the argument about the BBC and the licence fee. I support it in general as a principle but it feels like what it needs to do to fulfill its purpose in reaching all the country is produce more commercial style TV which maybe undermines its distinctiveness which is part of the argument for its funding model

It seems like a tough balance to strike?

I have to seriously wonder who the hell those people watching ITV are.
I strongly suspect a heavy overlap with brexity segments.

BBC4 surviving where 3 was once canned always did seem a very questionable decision. The BBC certainly trends a bit too high brow on occasion. But the response isn't the encourage the worst aspects of the country onwards.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Just do what the American equivalent (PBS) does--import most of your content from the UK.