Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Sheilbh]

What makes a term useful Shelf?

A shared, common, non-contested understanding of what it means - which, obviously, depends on the context: who are you speaking to and why.

[Admiral Yi]

A shared, common, non-contested understanding of what it means - which, obviously, depends on the context: who are you speaking to and why.

So terms like "liberal," "conservative," or "feminist,"  not useful?

[Sheilbh]

So terms like "liberal," "conservative," or "feminist,"  not useful?

It depends on the context - I think if someone provides a bit of a framework or definition about how they mean that term it might be useful. But on their own, no.

Same with "socialist" - you'll get thousands of different meanings of all of those words so they just become labels which are kind of empty except as a very broad pointer/steer.

[Admiral Yi]

Fair enough.

[Valmy]

So terms like "liberal," "conservative," or "feminist,"  not useful?

It depends on the context - I think if someone provides a bit of a framework or definition about how they mean that term it might be useful. But on their own, no.

Same with "socialist" - you'll get thousands of different meanings of all of those words so they just become labels which are kind of empty except as a very broad pointer/steer.

I think they are fine descriptors of ideas or policies but less good when people start adopting them as an identity.

[Sheilbh]

I think they are fine descriptors of ideas or policies but less good when people start adopting them as an identity.

I think I probably come at it from the opposite side

I think they're primarily used as labels and identities - they're a way of saying "I'm in the gang" or how people define some set of their views. Because of that I think they're not very helpful to describe ideas or policies because there may be a broad divergence about ideas/policies between people who identify as conservative, for example.

I think that rather than getting theological about what is and isn't conservative (and, more importantly, who is and isn't), we take people at the way they identify themselves but then try to understand in what sense they mean it. Not least because people just get defensive if you're telling them they're no true conservative

Probably because the meaning we ascribe to some part of our identity is more important than some external, theoretical meaning.

[Admiral Yi]

Certainly you don't think there's a wide divergence of ideas among people who identify as woke?

[Valmy]

Probably because the meaning we ascribe to some part of our identity is more important than some external, theoretical meaning.

Which is exactly why it is less good. Taking on and internalizing labels suddenly makes things personal and emotional that really aren't.

[Sheilbh]

Certainly you don't think there's a wide divergence of ideas among people who identify as woke?

I wouldn't put that in the same category as conservative/liberal/feminist

I think those are shared, common but very contested terms. I think woke isn't shared, isn't common and is pretty contested.

Which is exactly why it is less good. Taking on and internalizing labels suddenly makes things personal and emotional that really aren't.

Political beliefs are personal and emotional.

[Valmy]

Political beliefs are personal and emotional.

Sure but I would rather people emotionally defend their deeply personal views on what the ideal tax rate should be for people in a tax bracket between $30K and $50K or what sort of noise reduction walls should be required next to interstate highways bordering residential neighborhoods than some arbitrary tribal label where I don't even understand WTF it means or what they are talking about. I cannot work with amorphous arbitrary tribalism, I can with actual ideas.

[Valmy]

And I guess if you mean that the labels are personal and emotional and not the actual political beliefs I would agree and that is my problem with them.

[Josquius]

I wouldn't say I'm woke. The term is mostly seen used by far right nutters with vibes of the evil left forcing little boys to wear dresses and other such idiocy. It's unhelpful to self describe as it other than to merrily dance into the culture war the right want.
I prefer to just say I'm progressive and not an absolute cunt.

[Tamas]

I wouldn't say I'm woke. The term is mostly seen used by far right nutters with vibes of the evil left forcing little boys to wear dresses and other such idiocy. It's unhelpful to self describe as it other than to merrily dance into the culture war the right want.
I prefer to just say I'm progressive and not an absolute cunt.

There are terms worth fighting for, e.g. the far-right has worked hard to taint the term feminist. There's nothing wrong with continuing to use that. But "woke" is thickly covered in an air of superiority and self-importance even without the far-right taint.

[garbon]

Thank you, Tamas, the arbiter of language use.

[Tamas]

Thank you, Tamas, the arbiter of language use.

I told you: I am woke to the meaning of woke, time for you to catch up.