Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[HVC]

Why is the UK so attractive to immigration, but France doesn't seem to have the same reputation?

Maybe the British need to become more rude? 

i'd guess that english is the deciding factor. more people have english as a second language in europe then french.


But the rude thig might work too

[Josquius]

Also one for Tamas's argument that we should have some form of ID scheme - over five million EU citizens have applied for settled status. That's about double the number of EU citizens government estimated were living in the UK

The campaign group for EU citizens living in the UK was literally called The 3 Million based on that, apparently wildly incorrect, estimate.

I guess they were just thinking of recent EU era immigrants and failed to consider the huge numbers who have been here since forever?

[Sheilbh]

Why is the UK so attractive to immigration, but France doesn't seem to have the same reputation?

I don't know that we are - but as someone who worked with a lot of people who'd recently arrived from all over Europe in the 2010s: English. There's people I still keep in contact with from Romania, Spain, Italy who moved over during the crisis because they had some English so could get a job here - but no French or German. And the ability ranged from absolutely immaculate English to basically I did some English at school - but, you know, learn through immersion.

And there were plenty of other people from Spain or Italy so you could always communicate with them and I remember going to a party at a friend's house. She was Spanish - all of her flatmates were Spanish working in different bits of hospitality like me, and it was like an Erasmus party for people after university It's weird because I had no disposable income, but it was very fun being in hospitality in London in the 2010s - giving each other discount/free drinks and food in quite high end places, knowing the guys who worked in the bar next door and going out to the late night tequila bar when you'd locked up.

Of course, with a couple of exceptions, it was also kind of sad because to an extent many of the people I worked weren't really here by choice. There was a bit of compulsion given the crisis economically. So most of the people I worked with were highly qualified - young teachers, engineers etc - who couldn't get work in their home country and also couldn't find appropriate work here because they either lacked the language or bias in hiring because.

I guess they were just thinking of recent EU era immigrants and failed to consider the huge numbers who have been here since forever?

I'm not sure - they didn't count when people came in and there's no requirement to register if you move here. I don't really know what they based their estimate on.

The Home Office also estimated that fewer 20,000 people a year would come from the expansion countries, which was wildly wrong. So it may just be that they're really bad at estimating things

[Tamas]

First Minister Nicola Sturgeon, also the constituency MSP for the south side, tweeted her 'deep concern' over the Home Office's presence in the area, particularly while the community celebrates Eid.

I find it a very Sturgeon-ish politician way of pointing out the protesters were Muslim (according to her).

[Sheilbh]

First Minister Nicola Sturgeon, also the constituency MSP for the south side, tweeted her 'deep concern' over the Home Office's presence in the area, particularly while the community celebrates Eid.

I find it a very Sturgeon-ish politician way of pointing out the protesters were Muslim (according to her).

What?!

[Tamas]

First Minister Nicola Sturgeon, also the constituency MSP for the south side, tweeted her 'deep concern' over the Home Office's presence in the area, particularly while the community celebrates Eid.

I find it a very Sturgeon-ish politician way of pointing out the protesters were Muslim (according to her).

What?!

What did Eid have to do with anything in that news?

[Tamas]

Also one for Tamas's argument that we should have some form of ID scheme - over five million EU citizens have applied for settled status. That's about double the number of EU citizens government estimated were living in the UK

The campaign group for EU citizens living in the UK was literally called The 3 Million based on that, apparently wildly incorrect, estimate.

See? We have CCTVs everywhere, and things like credit ratings, but oh no an ID scheme is tyranny. You simply need it in some form to run a modern state.

The voting requirement thing only highlights that the lack of it is as easily abusable by a malevolent government as its existence.

[Sheilbh]

What did Eid have to do with anything in that news?

Because it's particularly egregious and disgraceful to conduct a raid like that during a big festive period for the community you're raiding.

The detained men aren't Muslim but that area has a large Muslim community in that area who were celebrating Eid when the immigration vans turned up to grab people. A local Afghan refugee activist said it was deliberately to "inflame tensions" which I'm not sure is wrong.

The voting requirement thing only highlights that the lack of it is as easily abusable by a malevolent government as its existence.

Maybe - from what I heard they were planning to introduce a free ID scheme and Labour accused them of introducing ID cards by the backdoor

[Tamas]

Maybe - from what I heard they were planning to introduce a free ID scheme and Labour accused them of introducing ID cards by the backdoor

TBF I was thinking the only good thing that can come out of this is to rally the right around the idea of ID cards to "own the libs".

To be clear I am not saying an ID card system can't be abused by the state, but doesn't have to be, and a lot of awkwardly organised things could be made much more efficient.

[Sheilbh]

Yeah - I have broadly come round to the fact there are some benefits and these probably outweigh the risks (maybe )

The whole point around the most effective bits of the government's response to covid being ultimately based on having a good database is something I find particularly relevant and persuasive.

Edit: Having said that - if we're doing an ID scheme I think it should be a generally online ID scheme like the Baltics (so you can manage your own information through an app), but with an actual card if you need it.

[Sheilbh]

And in Northern Ireland Edwin Poots wins! Which was the expected result - but does mean we're moving from a Northern Irish government that was moderately supportive of the NIP to one that intends to "systematically undermine and strip away all aspects" of it (or at least the parts DUP ministers will be responsible for). He's also proposing some interesting stuff around coordinating unionist groups and starting to democratise the DUP (which is a bit like the CCP - this is the first actual leadership election where a single candidate wasn't decided and confirmed by the power-brokers in advance).

Interestingly they've also elected a far more socially moderate Deputy Leader which slightly indicates the Janus quality of unionism - so she, like Arlene Foster, abstained on banning conversion therapy and has spoken at a gay press and gay events in Belfast.

Edit: His comment on the Big Bang (as mentioned he is a young earth creationist) is one of the best signs of just how alien Northern Irish politics can be from the rest of the UK (and, indeed, Ireland): "You're telling me that cosmic balls of dust gathered and there was an explosion? We've had lots of explosions in Northern Ireland and I've never seen anything come out of that that was good."

[Tonitrus]

Maybe - from what I heard they were planning to introduce a free ID scheme and Labour accused them of introducing ID cards by the backdoor

TBF I was thinking the only good thing that can come out of this is to rally the right around the idea of ID cards to "own the libs".

To be clear I am not saying an ID card system can't be abused by the state, but doesn't have to be, and a lot of awkwardly organised things could be made much more efficient.

I'm coming around to it myself...it'd likely create a huge outcry over here as well, but...Social Security cards...drivers licenses...passports...student IDs...

What I would probably object to, is if the government were to make it compulsory to carry an ID card on your person at all times.

Lots of a folks love their cognitive dissonance about trust in government.  Just today, NPR had a story on lack of trust in public institutions, using the example of interviews with some of the folks who lack that trust, and their refusal to get the COVID vaccine because they don't trust government agencies like the CDC...."but I would get it if it were approved by the FDA".   

[Oexmelin]

To say nothing of the abandon with which people share much more intimate details about their lives to opaque, undemocratic corporations over which they have zero control, but eye with suspicion the government over which they have oversight - at least nominally.

[Josquius]

Why is the UK so attractive to immigration, but France doesn't seem to have the same reputation?

I remember checking the numbers for this, and we aren't. Not in absolute numbers and definitely not per capita.
Germany gets far more and I believe France does have more too- Bulgarians and Romanians especially feel more at home in France (and Italy) than the UK.
Half of Lithuania is in the UK though apparently.

Because it's particularly egregious and disgraceful to conduct a raid like that during a big festive period for the community you're raiding.

The detained men aren't Muslim but that area has a large Muslim community in that area who were celebrating Eid when the immigration vans turned up to grab people. A local Afghan refugee activist said it was deliberately to "inflame tensions" which I'm not sure is wrong.

Are they confirmed non-muslim now? I've seen conflicting reports.
"They're not muslims! You're a racist you racist for saying all brown people are the same!" seems to be a far right defence of this at the moment.
They're really having a field day with this projection thanks to that union guy who said patel and those who share her views should be the one deported.

[Sheilbh]

I remember checking the numbers for this, and we aren't. Not in absolute numbers and definitely not per capita.
Germany gets far more and I believe France does have more too- Bulgarians and Romanians especially feel more at home in France (and Italy) than the UK.
Half of Lithuania is in the UK though apparently.

Although where those per capita numbers based on the incorrect estimate?

Obviously settled status applications are not definitive - because many people will have chosen not to make an application. But about 260,000 Bulgarians and about 850,000 Romanians have applied for settled status - the estimates for both were way off about 100,000 Bulgarians and under 400,000 Romanians.

And in terms of Lithuanians 230,000 have applied for settled status - which is about 8% of Lithuania's population (about 2.8 million) so not an insignificant number

This does also suggest one of the risks with free movement that I've thought about for a while that it maybe creates a European level version of "left behind"/Trumpy diners in Ohio. So lots of young, often well-qualified people move to local big cities and also to bits of Western Europe that are already doing well - leaving behind increasingly old populations that see a demographic crisis causing a bit of a panic about immigration and the state of the country leading which helps the rise of politicians liks Duda and Orban - who are in turn supported by younger, often more liberal likely opponents leaving.

Are they confirmed non-muslim now? I've seen conflicting reports.
"They're not muslims! You're a racist you racist for saying all brown people are the same!" seems to be a far right defence of this at the moment.

I don't know - I didn't know it had been an issue. But from The Herald yesterday:

What are people saying about it?

Allison Thewliss, the area's MP, has contacted the UK government demanding they call off the raid.

As of earlier this afternoon, she told the our sister paper the Glasgow Times she had not heard back from the Home Office.

Her Westminster SNP colleague Chris Stephens, who represents Glasgow South West addressed protesters at the event and called for the men to be released.

He said afterwards that he thought the protest had a "very good chance" of succeeding, and protesters said they were prepared to stay "as long as it takes" for the detainees to be freed. Some brought food to be shared out among those who have created a barrier around the van.

An immigration lawyer at the scene, who did not wish to be named because of his role, described the Home Office as "lousy" but did not rate the chances of the protest being successful. Mohammad Asif, a refugee leader, of the Afghan Human Rights Foundation is protesting against the raid.

He said it was carried out on Eid al-Fitr, a Muslim holy day, to "inflame tensions". While the detainees are not Muslims, many who have turned out today are.

He added: "These are our neighbours. This is our community."

He told the crowd through a megaphone: "When you tell me to go home - where is my home? You bombed my home."

They're really having a field day with this projection thanks to that union guy who said patel and those who share her views should be the one deported.

They're right - and he is running to lead Unite one of the biggest unions in the country. If your line about Priti Patel is not something you'd say about Theresa May (e.g. "Priti Patel should be deported") - consider if it's racist before posting it. Similarly if it's something you'd say about May or Patel, but not Sajid Javid or David Blunkett - consider if it's misogynist before posting.