Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Josquius]

I like the Swiss way, where they need a double majority of votes and states.
Considering London has devolution and Wales having most likely flipped....

How this would be done in Scotland I don't know. But would help the unease of those in the north who don't like the Edinburgh centric efforts of the Scottish government.

[ulmont]

Speaking of endless referendums, Sinn Fein now wants one on unifying Ireland, in five years!

Northern Ireland is entitled to a referendum under existing UK law (from the Good Friday Accords) "if at any time it appears likely to [the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, currently Julian Smith] that a majority of those voting would express a wish that Northern Ireland should cease to be part of the United Kingdom and form part of a united Ireland."  They get to hold one every 7 years.

This almost bi-annual bloody Scottish referendum BS is seriously retarded. They get to keep voting and voting until one day one more person votes for independence than staying and all hell breaks loose.

1. Not really.  They've not had a referendum closer than 5 years apart even if they had one in 2019 (so far, 18 years and then 17 years).
2. Options of being in the EU or not is a big fucking question that is worth possibly 2 people's votes...

[Sheilbh]

So Johnson won the second reading, but then lost control of the timetable and is now "pausing" the bill. Again, the DUP were the difference.

I don't agree with them, but there is something enjoyable watching them (justifiably) go to town on this bill while the ERG just bluster and sputter and squirm. Eg:
https://twitter.com/eastantrimmp/status/1186673870536876032

Although, they are now apparently regretting not supporting the May deals

On the other referendums I agree with ulmont. There's a right to a border poll (Northern Ireland and the Republic) under the Good Friday Agreement and UK law, Northern Ireland is a part of the UK because that is the wish of the majority.

Also if Brexit happens there should be another IndyRef and if were Scottish I would definitely vote Yes.

I don't get England

Edit: Meanwhile there's been a few parliamentary candidate selections. A Jewish Labour MP has expressed her disappointment the local parties aren't choosing the "least anti-semitic" options

[Hamilcar]

I feel very sad about the whole affair.

At this point, I hope they manage one more delay so I can get my "Good-bye UK" tour in over a long weekend....

[Josquius]

I'm not sure I understood what happened.
So the deal has passed and it's just a matter of when?

[Sheilbh]

I'm not sure I understood what happened.
So the deal has passed and it's just a matter of when?

Not quite.

First reading is the government saying - here's a bill, no debate.

Second reading - there's a debate, but it's on the general content (normally because it's not long after the first reading). Which the government won.

Then it goes to committee - for a bill like this chances are the entire House will sit as a committee. Which is when you can make amendments and you go through it clause by clause. The government wanted to do this in two days which the government lost and so, like a toddler, have said they're taking the ball away and "pausing" the process.

Then it goes to the third reading which is usually quite short but basically a vote on the bill as reviewed and amended by the committee.

But there are a number of Labour MPs who people suspect will vote for a second reading, but vote against it on the third reading - like Lisa Nandy. That allows them to say they have tried to vote for Brexit but once they got into the details it's a bad deal. Plus lots of MPs didn't like the government trying to force it through in two days.

But then it goes to the Lords who always run their own timetable and do not like being rushed (unsurprisingly).

[Tonitrus]

I could be reading it wrong, but it looks like the latest ploy is for Boris to eat a 3-month Brexit delay, and go for a general election.  With a 3-month delay, Corbyn would probably want to bite on that, and we get to see the joy of said election with Brexit as the driving issue.

[Tamas]

On the other referendums I agree with ulmont. There's a right to a border poll (Northern Ireland and the Republic) under the Good Friday Agreement and UK law, Northern Ireland is a part of the UK because that is the wish of the majority.

Also if Brexit happens there should be another IndyRef and if were Scottish I would definitely vote Yes.

I don't get England

Ok, so I was ignorant on the NI option, fair enough. Everyone in Britain would sigh a sigh of relief if reunification happened, I think, anyways. And seeing how the Protestants were protesting the easing of abortion laws there, I am having trouble seeing the vast unbridgeable difference their have with the Republic brethren anyways.



But on Scotland...

If you think the leaving of the EU is sufficient reason for a 2nd referendum, and indeed you'd support Scottish independence, then it means you are gunning for border checks between Scotland and England, since that's the scenario (a hard Brexit) where Scotland's independence would make a practical difference in regards to their (eventual) access to the EU.

I am having real trouble seeing how that would be a beneficial choice for Scotts. As somebody supporting this hard-border independence idea, I am wondering if you have given thought to:

-what currency Scotland will use?
-what will happen to the British Navy?
-who will receive Scottish citizenship?
-what about the non-British residents of Scotland? What rights will they receive and how their eligibility would be assessed?
-What are to be done with Scottish businesses dependent on export or import to and from England?
-what will happen to Scottish trade in the interim cca. 5-10 years between independence and readmittance to the EU?
-how will the new state be financed?
-once the above and the 500 other things I couldn't think of in the space of 10 seconds have been sorted, what is the general vision for a low population, shitty climate country with dwindling oil reserves locked out with tariffs and regulations from its only land neighbour?

[Tamas]

Also, I guess supporting Scottish independence means that truly the United Kingdom is not seen as one nation (or rather, a unifying entity of its peoples). I mean, I assume you do not support the idea of London referenduming independence from the rest of England on account of its population favouring Remain?

[Sheilbh]

Scotland's a different country with a separate legal system (it's partly a civil law system), a separate education system, plus NHS and policing etc and has a fairly distinct politics. Going back to when this sort of thing mattered it had a separate church (no Bishops, the Monarch swears to "uphold" the Kirk but isn't Supreme Governor as with the Church of England).

As Auden O'Niell put it at the Supreme Court we are a union-state of nations, not a state of uniformity.

[Tamas]

Scotland's a different country with a separate legal system (it's partly a civil law system), a separate education system, plus NHS and policing etc and has a fairly distinct politics. Going back to when this sort of thing mattered it had a separate church (no Bishops, the Monarch swears to "uphold" the Kirk but isn't Supreme Governor as with the Church of England).

As Auden O'Niell put it at the Supreme Court we are a union-state of nations, not a state of uniformity.

I am aware of those (admittedly mostly because of my recent Life in the UK exam ), but I thought there would be much more "supra-national" identity in the UK It seems entertaining the thought of Scottish independence is not of bigger impact for people than trying to guess who'll win the next election.

[Tamas]

Which is further reinforcing my thought that in ten years there won't be a United Kingdom.

[Sheilbh]

Yeah. I know I'm an exception (Irish parents, born in England, grew up in Scotland) because my national identity is resolutely British and definitely not English.

But I think that's rare. I think empire and the world wars probably really were the "British" project and made a lot of shared identity.

But Britishness never replaced those identities, so I feel British but fully know there's those separate and distinct strands. It's not like America, say, or (maybe?) Canada.

[Tamas]

I saw it mentioned somewhere, that the British identity is much more identifiable for immigrants, as in itself it means a community of nationalities (even leaving the Commonwealth out of it). Whereas "English" is a much more specific and restrictive national identity.

I am quite certain this would not be the case if there never was a "British" identity, i.e. if the immigrants have always lived in an "England" then they would have no trouble identifying with that (well, not more than with British), but it does ring true to me, to an extent.

If I think about it, I can imagine once calling myself "British", and proudly so (once it didn't feel audacious to do so) as in my mind that stands for the country I live in and the people I live among and all the positive experiences I have had with those, as with the approval of the larger historical context of Britain and her ultimately very positive effect on world history, and what it stood for.

I am having trouble imagining ever labelling myself "English" though. After "British" it just sounds too specific.

[Josquius]

Yeah, to identify as English unless you're a professional sportsman generally means you're a cunt.

With Scottish independence: that it is a bad idea doesn't mean Scotland doesn't deserve the right for a referendum. It should definitely be expected they've actual answers to these questions for everyone to vote on, unlike the fluffy anything you can imagine brexit, but that the border would be a hastle is no reason not to have the vote.

I'm not sure I understood what happened.
So the deal has passed and it's just a matter of when?

Not quite.

First reading is the government saying - here's a bill, no debate.

Second reading - there's a debate, but it's on the general content (normally because it's not long after the first reading)gly).

Thanks. The previous ones never got this far?