Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Josquius]

Interesting. So far I'd been believing what I'd read in the media about the vote being blocked due to Bercow being a legend.
But, it seems this was the plan all along. Commit an obvious infraction with an obvious response to feed the populist down with parliament hysteria.
https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1186016167216988160?s=20

[Tamas]

No Raz, I should be fine. My citizenship application will be judged in the next 6 months, and they won't be in a position to freely deport certain ethnicities for a couple of years still.

[crazy canuck]

"...they won't be in a position to freely deport certain ethnicities for a couple of years still."


Words that belong in a novel describing a dystopian future.

[Sheilbh]

Current status is government probably has the votes to pass the deal and to avoid second referendum or customs union amendments.

But they have proposed passing this deal (and the Withdrawal Bill) through the Commons by Thursday which has made a lot of people angry. And it looks like there is support to basically try and ban a UK Prime Minister from crashing out at the end of the future arrangements negotiations.

As I've said before I query Johnson's hope this leads to an election which gives him a big majority after all this. At the minute my main reasons (additional to the others) is: when's the last time voters voted for someone out of gratitude?

Also, without Brexit, what does Johnson have to offer the Labour Leave voters his entire strategy depends on? Also, some recent focus groups showing that when people discover that there are more Brexit negotiations after this deal they react with "horrified silence". I rather liked Helen Lewis' line that just wanting to agree this to get Brexit over with, is like wanting childbirth to finish so you can go back to lots of sleep and reading lots of novels

[Josquius]

I was thinking just this morning if a second referendum does come about might the best tactic for the remain side be to highlight a vote for the deal meaning a vote for brexit to continue to dominate our lives for several more years yet whilst remain is a vote to put an end to it.

[Sheilbh]

Especially as the poll on a second referendum this morning was:
Johnson's deal - 42%
Remain - 42%



Edit: And hundreds of loyalists and unionists attended the meeting to "smash the Betrayal Act" and their anger at a "sea border". Allegedly several paramilitary figures in attendance - asked about this the organisers made the (not entirely unreasonable) point that (former) members of the IRA sat in the Stormont government and sit in the Dail

"Nobody's trying to stoke up violence. But [...] it's good enough for the IRA, it's good enough for nationalists, including the Irish government, to win concessions and drive us into an economic united Ireland. No sensible person wants to see violence." I always thought Johnson would get a deal by shafting the unionists - maximum freedom for GB at the expense of Northern Ireland. But it's still an absolute disgrace

[Sheilbh]

Hardline Brexiteers on throwing the unionists under the bus: "my constituency's miles away from Northern Ireland"

Edit: Actually am I just a dinosaur? The UK Labour Party are fine with a second Scots IndyRef and seem indifferent as to the result. The Tories, according to polls, would rather lose Scotland and Northern Ireland than lose Brexit.

I can't help but feel that a political principle that is mainly supported by the DUP, the Lib Dems and me is probably doomed

[Tamas]

Hardline Brexiteers on throwing the unionists under the bus: "my constituency's miles away from Northern Ireland"

Edit: Actually am I just a dinosaur? The UK Labour Party are fine with a second Scots IndyRef and seem indifferent as to the result. The Tories, according to polls, would rather lose Scotland and Northern Ireland than lose Brexit.

I can't help but feel that a political principle that is mainly supported by the DUP, the Lib Dems and me is probably doomed

This almost bi-annual bloody Scottish referendum BS is seriously retarded. They get to keep voting and voting until one day one more person votes for independence than staying and all hell breaks loose.

If people think Brexit is complicated try untangling Scotland, especially if Scotland will want to be an EU member while the Tories run Singapore-on-Thames over here.

[Tamas]

Especially as the poll on a second referendum this morning was:
Johnson's deal - 42%
Remain - 42%

[Josquius]

The arguments for another Scottish referendum are not without merit. The situation may be massively changing vs when they voted against it.
Brexit should be sorted first without a doubt. But once that's done if brexit goes ahead then they are fully within their rights to vote again and as much as I'd hope they would stay in the UK I really wouldn't blame them for wanting shot of England.

It's a key part in my wanting to move to Scotland

[Tamas]

The arguments for another Scottish referendum are not without merit. The situation may be massively changing vs when they voted against it.
Brexit should be sorted first without a doubt. But once that's done if brexit goes ahead then they are fully within their rights to vote again and as much as I'd hope they would stay in the UK I really wouldn't blame them for wanting shot of England.

It's a key part in my wanting to move to Scotland

Two things:

1. Yeah sure things have drasticall changed. But they will also change 5 years from next year when the trade negotiations with the EU will be wrapping up (ha-ha). Does that mean a 3rd Scottish referendum if the second one fails to gain independence? Also, what is some other thing happens that has not already been foretold, like nationalisation of some industry the Scotts didn't want nationalised? Or the privatisation of the NHS and the Scotts don't want part of it? Surely that would warrant Indyrefs #4 and #5? Or joining a war the Scotts don't like? Indyref #6!

2. Good luck in EU Scotland having a hard border with England.

[Tamas]

Speaking of endless referendums, Sinn Fein now wants one on unifying Ireland, in five years!

[Josquius]

So when would be an appropriate time for a referendum if not in the wake of the biggest strip of citizen rights in the countrys history that will fundamentally alter our way of life for the worse?

50%+1 is a stupid way to do it of course, as much as they will whinge that since brexit was so badly done they should be allowed to skew things like so too.
But I can't see how a democracy can disallow a clear viable contiguous area like Scotland a say in its own destiny and still be considered a democracy.

[Tamas]

So when would be an appropriate time for a referendum if not in the wake of the biggest strip of citizen rights in the countrys history that will fundamentally alter our way of life for the worse?

To hold a referendum of a simple majority over such a momentous decision at ANY TIME is retarded and the clear sign of dysfunctional politics.


The Sinn Fein news, BTW, made realise we are witnessing the start of the dissolution of the last great multinational state in Europe. Hopefully, it will go smoother than with Austria-Hungary and Yugoslavia.

[Richard Hakluyt]

The Scots should beware of a 50%+1 referendum. For major constitutional change a super-majority should be required, perhaps 60% or so, otherwise there will be endless problems.

Something that Cameron would have known if he'd gone to a decent school