Madoff gets 150 years in prison!

[Caliga]

He is trying to protect his family and wants them to get away with as much of the money as possible it seems to me.

Indeed, it would shock me if his wife and sons didn't know what he was doing, despite their vehement denials.  I also suspect he had an inner circle of the largest investors who knew as well.  I've met Robert Jaffe and he has that slimy used-car salesman vibe, and the guy's job was basically marketing Madoff.

[Martinus]

He is trying to protect his family and wants them to get away with as much of the money as possible it seems to me.

Indeed, it would shock me if his wife and sons didn't know what he was doing, despite their vehement denials.  I also suspect he had an inner circle of the largest investors who knew as well.  I've met Robert Jaffe and he has that slimy used-car salesman vibe, and the guy's job was basically marketing Madoff.

In the US, can you be forced to testify against your closest family?

[Caliga]

If you're the defendant, you can never be forced to testify in a criminal case.  I'm not sure if the prosecution could have called, say Ruth Madoff and tried to force her to testify against her spouse.

[Martinus]

If you're the defendant, you can never be forced to testify in a criminal case.  I'm not sure if the prosecution could have called, say Ruth Madoff and tried to force her to testify against her spouse.

Well, then what I am saying is that: if you can't be forced to testify against your relatives, then it shouldn't be possible to increase your penalty (or at all take it into account in sentencing you) whether you turned in your relatives who were in on it or not - which is something you implied here. Otherwise the "can't be forced to testify" thing becomes illusory.

[Caliga]

I'm not sure I get exactly what you're saying, but if a defendant pleads guilty and then helps the prosecution get to the bottom of a crime which involves potentially many associates, it makes sense to me that the sentence be reduced.  I don't think it should matter whether or not said associates are family members.

[Valmy]

Well, then what I am saying is that: if you can't be forced to testify against your relatives, then it shouldn't be possible to increase your penalty (or at all take it into account in sentencing you) whether you turned in your relatives who were in on it or not - which is something you implied here. Otherwise the "can't be forced to testify" thing becomes illusory.

What Caliga means is that you can get off lighter via what we call a 'Plea bargain' which is common in Common Law countries like the US.  The accused can get a lighter sentence by cooperating with law enforcement either to plead guilty and thus save us all the court time or to help turn in their accomplices.  We use this to break up organize crime and the like.  Italy, which is a Civil Law country, adopted this system to help break up the Mafia for example.

So it gives the accused a way out, I guess it could be twisted to be seen as coercion to testify.  We Common Law types are wacky like that.

[Admiral Yi]

Investing a pension fund is not exactly the same as greedy idiots.  Idiots maybe, but some investment dude was just trying to do his job and find a good place for his customers retirement funds?  You don't have sympathy for those people?

But anyway I am worried about the health of our financial sector and that is why guys like this need to be made an example of.  Your personal opinion that anybody who invests is a greedy idiot or not is irrelevent to the seriousness of the crime.  Last I checked you don't punish criminals less just because their victims were morons.

Investing a pension fund and expecting to get 17% return in deflationary times is pretty idiotic.

[Valmy]

Investing a pension fund and expecting to get 17% return in deflationary times is pretty idiotic.

I never said it wasn't.

[Jos Theelen]

You're not going far enough.  Martinus is a moron himself for dealing with them.  In fact, Martinus is a moron in any event, but you should show more audacity in your attacks on him.

Oh, fuck off





(you mean something like this?)

[Neil]

You're not going far enough.  Martinus is a moron himself for dealing with them.  In fact, Martinus is a moron in any event, but you should show more audacity in your attacks on him.

Oh, fuck off





(you mean something like this?)

Too simple.  Use what you know about the person against them.

[Malthus]

The larger question is to what extent victims of any fraud are the authors of their own misfortune, and so not deserving of sympathy.

I'm inclined to err on the side of sympathy, particularly in cases like this where the fraudster had very impressive real credentials, and some very sophisticated people and organizations were fooled.

[Valmy]

The larger question is to what extent victims of any fraud are the authors of their own misfortune, and so not deserving of sympathy.

I'm inclined to err on the side of sympathy, particularly in cases like this where the fraudster had very impressive real credentials, and some very sophisticated people and organizations were fooled.

I am not really crazy over the blame the victim mentality, nor do I see how it is really relevent on how much Madoff should be charged.  Committing crimes against the gullible and foolish is no less serious a crime than committing them against the sophisticated and the brilliant.

[KRonn]

No surprise by me; I'll be interested to see who else gets charged in this nasty scam.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31638766/ns/business-us_business/

Source: 10 more will be charged in Madoff scam
Won't disclose whether that includes family members or ex-employees

updated 8:10 a.m. ET, Tues., June 30, 2009

NEW YORK - Federal authorities are pressing a probe of 10 associates of Bernard Madoff despite a sentence that means the mastermind of one of the biggest financial frauds in history will spend the rest of his days behind bars, The Associated Press has learned.

A person, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the investigation is ongoing, wouldn't detail potential charges or say whether the 10 would include Madoff's family or former employees. So far, only Madoff and an accountant accused of failing to make basic auditing checks have been criminally charged in the multibillion-dollar hoax. 

[alfred russel]

Everyone is jumping off a bridge, I think I shall too!

Spare us; it's easy to sound all pompous and prescient after the guy has already been convicted and sentenced- until this year, a lot of people more skilled than you and me in financial matters thought Madoff was the real thing.

Hedge funds don't have much oversight, and the price for that is only qualified sophisticated investors can invest. Hence what you and garbon wouldn't do is irrelevant, because neither of you likely meet the criteria as a sophisticated investor.

I am quite certain that I never would have given Madoff any money, nor would I have freely invested in a group that did so to a material extent (there is always the chance to get burned through a pension that you don't have control over). I can tell you that every investment I have, and every investment I ever will have, I have done the following: a) reviewed the financials, b) reviewed the audit report, c) reviewed the strategy and business condition. That isn't being sophisticated, that is simply having basic sense, and Madoff failed all 3 counts.

[The Brain]

I certainly think that the Three-card Monte guys on the street should be punished for what they do to tourists, but I have a hard time feeling sorry for the marks. My main objection to the dealers is that they look like Eastern Europe trash (which they are) and smell bad.

I expect a guy investing $100 million to be a LOT more careful to check out stuff than a gullible tourist investing $100. Anything else would be insulting to him.