Hillary vs Bernie

[Eddie Teach]

Effective ones aren't.

[Admiral Yi]

Effective ones aren't.

Bernie didn't say anything about effective ones.

[grumbler]

Nah. Hardly anyone chooses war when their objectives can be reached by other means.

Yup.  Alternative resorts are infinite.

Are you arguing that it is impossible under any circumstances for any problem to boil down to "the last resort" because there are infinite alternative resorts in all problems, or are you arguing that only Bernie Sanders' military policy cannot ever reach the last resort, or something else?  Right now, your comments and arguments seem to be purely rhetorical.

[grumbler]

Effective ones aren't.

Bernie didn't say anything about effective ones.

  Seriously?  This is going to be your argument?

[Jacob]

Nah. Hardly anyone chooses war when their objectives can be reached by other means.

Yup.  Alternative resorts are infinite.

Now you're being silly. There's an infinite supply of alternatives, but everyone has one that they consider the last one whether it's "you're actively attacking our country and killing our citizens" or "we asked you once to change your government and you haven't."

[Admiral Yi]

Now you're being silly. There's an infinite supply of alternatives, but everyone has one that they consider the last one whether it's "you're actively attacking our country and killing our citizens" or "we asked you once to change your government and you haven't."

I don't have a last resort in either of those situations.

[DGuller]

Yi has declared war on the "last resort" phrase.

[Jacob]

Now you're being silly. There's an infinite supply of alternatives, but everyone has one that they consider the last one whether it's "you're actively attacking our country and killing our citizens" or "we asked you once to change your government and you haven't."

I don't have a last resort in either of those situations.

Maybe I phrased my point poorly - it was that everyone bar extreme pacifists have a point where they think war is the only viable resort. Sanders' statement that he considers war a last resort means that there are relatively fewer situations where he'd consider war an appropriate response, not that there are none. And you know that.

[Admiral Yi]

Maybe I phrased my point poorly - it was that everyone bar extreme pacifists have a point where they think war is the only viable resort. Sanders' statement that he considers war a last resort means that there are relatively fewer situations where he'd consider war an appropriate response, not that there are none. And you know that.

I do not.

Obama distinguished between smart wars and dumb wars.  Bernie does not.  War is *always* the last resort.  Those are his words.

[Jacob]

I do not.

Obama distinguished between smart wars and dumb wars.  Bernie does not.  War is *always* the last resort.  Those are his words.

Are you unaware that war of last resort is a pretty significant part of the ethics of war and the concept of the just war? - http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/war/just/lastresort.shtml & https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war_theory

For example, stalwarts such as Colin Powell and Donald Rumsfeld used the concept as they justified the second Gulf War.

"War should be the politics of last resort.  And when we go to war, we should have a purpose that our people understand and support."
(Secretary of State, former Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff)

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/c/colinpowel169242.html

Rumsfeld: Sure. Exactly. But war has to be the last resort and I was hopeful to the very end that the president and the United States and the coalition would be successful in getting Saddam Hussein to either acquiesce and agree with the United Nations or leave the country, or that he could be killed at Dora farms in that first attack... He wasn't there.

http://mondoweiss.net/2012/06/war-should-be-the-last-resort-donald-rumsfeld/

Is there a particular reason you're choosing to interpret Sanders' use of an established philosophical phrase outside of the context in which it is normally used?

[Admiral Yi]

I concede.

[Martinus]

Now you're being silly. There's an infinite supply of alternatives, but everyone has one that they consider the last one whether it's "you're actively attacking our country and killing our citizens" or "we asked you once to change your government and you haven't."

I don't have a last resort in either of those situations.

Maybe I phrased my point poorly - it was that everyone bar extreme pacifists have a point where they think war is the only viable resort. Sanders' statement that he considers war a last resort means that there are relatively fewer situations where he'd consider war an appropriate response, not that there are none. And you know that.

Yes, but in the language of politics, when you say war is the last resort, you usually mean you are a pacifist.

[Eddie Teach]

On the contrary, it's a platitude that even hawks like Rumsfeld agree with.

[grumbler]

On the contrary, it's a platitude that even hawks like Rumsfeld agree with.

I agree with this 100%.  I think that anyone arguing that war was NOT the last resort would be widely seen as mentally or morally defective.

[Berkut]

On the contrary, it's a platitude that even hawks like Rumsfeld agree with.

So we go back to what he has said about specific cases, and in that he seems very pacifist. Thinks that ISIS should be taken care of locally, for example, and wants the US to stay out.

Just because the specific meaning of particular words can be parsed to mean almost anything (or more often nothing at all) doesn't mean that we MUST do that. When someone asks a bunch of politicians what they think about a particular use of military power, you can contrast their responses to glean out where they stand, even if looking at those responses in isolation could be interpreted differently.

"Should we invade Iraq?"

A: Saddam has refused our demands, and we have no choice but to take immediate action!
B: War is always a measure of last resort!

Both of those responses looked at in isolation could be parsed to have completely overlapping meanings, but if we ask two politicians that question and get those two responses, it seems pretty clear one is in favor if war and one opposed.