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Hillary vs Bernie

Started by Eddie Teach, January 31, 2016, 05:47:52 AM

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Say you're at the Iowa Democratic caucus- who do you vote for?

Sanders
31 (46.3%)
Clinton
25 (37.3%)
Littlefinger
5 (7.5%)
Sanders, but only to make it easier for GOP to win
2 (3%)
Clinton, but only to make it easier for GOP to win
0 (0%)
Write in for Biden :(
1 (1.5%)
Write in for Trump :wacko:
3 (4.5%)

Total Members Voted: 66

DGuller

It reminds me of Vicky 2, where liberals get tired of oppression and demand "harassed parties" political reform.

dps

Quote from: garbon on February 09, 2016, 03:39:30 AM
I'm not sure were slaves really citizens? They certainly didn't have any rights

I don't think that there was any legal theory before the Civil War that held that slaves were citizens.  Being both would have pretty much been an contradiction.  Certainly there were a good number of folks that thought that they ought to be citizens, but those folks also wanted slavery to end.  Though it should be noted that even a lot of abolitionists didn't necessarily think that if slavery was ended, freed slaves should have equal rights.

Beyond that, according to Roger B Taney's majority opinion in the Dred Scot case, even free blacks weren't citizens.  That overturned about 3/4 of a century of legal precedence, had no real basis on anything in the Constitution, and oh, BTW, the Court took the opportunity to  rule the Missouri Compromise unconstitutional.  Of course, that's part of why the case was so much like throwing gasoline on a bonfire as far as tensions over slavery were concerned.  Even people outside the south who otherwise didn't really care about the slavery issue could see that pro-slavery forces were twisting the law to their own ends. and turn a lot of previously unconcerned northerners into abolitionists.  Pretty much the worst decision ever made by the Supreme Court.  And I don't mean just morally wrong, but clearly incorrect as far as interpreting what the Constitution actually says as well.

BTW, at the time, the Dred Scot case was the longest-running legal case in American history.  AFAIK, it's still the third longest, behind IIRC the telephone patent cases and the Microsoft anti-trust case.

Valmy

#257
Quote from: dps on February 09, 2016, 04:43:29 PMEven people outside the south who otherwise didn't really care about the slavery issue could see that pro-slavery forces were twisting the law to their own ends. and turn a lot of previously unconcerned northerners into abolitionists.

Quote from: Abraham LincolnPut this and that together, and we have another nice little niche, which we may, ere long, see filled with another Supreme Court decision, declaring that the Constitution of the United States does not permit a State to exclude slavery from its limits. ...We shall lie down pleasantly dreaming that the people of Missouri are on the verge of making their State free, and we shall awake to the reality instead, that the Supreme Court has made Illinois a slave State.

Yep.

It was also the first nail in the coffin of the Democratic Party as it existed. Their 'popular sovereignty' solution was shown to be completely nonviable.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Razgovory

Quote from: garbon on February 09, 2016, 03:39:30 AM

Okay? So government designed then?


No, those Indians existed prior to the US government.  The government simply recognized the rights of those polities.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

garbon

Quote from: Razgovory on February 09, 2016, 04:49:26 PM
Quote from: garbon on February 09, 2016, 03:39:30 AM

Okay? So government designed then?


No, those Indians existed prior to the US government.  The government simply recognized the rights of those polities.

I think black people existed prior to the US government too. :P
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."

I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

grumbler

Quote from: garbon on February 09, 2016, 05:10:54 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 09, 2016, 04:49:26 PM
Quote from: garbon on February 09, 2016, 03:39:30 AM

Okay? So government designed then?


No, those Indians existed prior to the US government.  The government simply recognized the rights of those polities.

I think black people existed prior to the US government too. :P

Indeed, and had those blacks wanted to return to their tribes like the Indians did, they could have... like the Indians did.   :P
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

Berkut

When it comes to Bernie, do we know anything at all about his foreign policy stance?

He seems pretty far left in general, is he of the Noam Chomsky, America is the worst thing that ever happened to the world crowd that seems so popular in the left these days?
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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crazy canuck

Quote from: Berkut on February 15, 2016, 12:25:51 AM
When it comes to Bernie, do we know anything at all about his foreign policy stance?

He seems pretty far left in general, is he of the Noam Chomsky, America is the worst thing that ever happened to the world crowd that seems so popular in the left these days?

From the perspective of an non American doesnt seem far left at all on foreign policy - but YMMV

http://www.ontheissues.org/2016/Bernie_Sanders_Foreign_Policy.htm

Berkut

Quote from: crazy canuck on February 15, 2016, 11:30:42 AM
Quote from: Berkut on February 15, 2016, 12:25:51 AM
When it comes to Bernie, do we know anything at all about his foreign policy stance?

He seems pretty far left in general, is he of the Noam Chomsky, America is the worst thing that ever happened to the world crowd that seems so popular in the left these days?

From the perspective of an non American doesnt seem far left at all on foreign policy - but YMMV

http://www.ontheissues.org/2016/Bernie_Sanders_Foreign_Policy.htm

Well, he pretty cleary is not a Chomsky disciple, so that is good.

But his "lets stick our heads in the sand and hope it goes away" approach to dealing with islamic radicalism seems pretty terrible.
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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Martinus

Quote from: Berkut on February 15, 2016, 11:39:49 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on February 15, 2016, 11:30:42 AM
Quote from: Berkut on February 15, 2016, 12:25:51 AM
When it comes to Bernie, do we know anything at all about his foreign policy stance?

He seems pretty far left in general, is he of the Noam Chomsky, America is the worst thing that ever happened to the world crowd that seems so popular in the left these days?

From the perspective of an non American doesnt seem far left at all on foreign policy - but YMMV

http://www.ontheissues.org/2016/Bernie_Sanders_Foreign_Policy.htm

Well, he pretty cleary is not a Chomsky disciple, so that is good.

But his "lets stick our heads in the sand and hope it goes away" approach to dealing with islamic radicalism seems pretty terrible.

Also, not hawkish enough on Russia, imho.

Berkut

Quote from: Martinus on February 15, 2016, 11:40:46 AM
Quote from: Berkut on February 15, 2016, 11:39:49 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on February 15, 2016, 11:30:42 AM
Quote from: Berkut on February 15, 2016, 12:25:51 AM
When it comes to Bernie, do we know anything at all about his foreign policy stance?

He seems pretty far left in general, is he of the Noam Chomsky, America is the worst thing that ever happened to the world crowd that seems so popular in the left these days?

From the perspective of an non American doesnt seem far left at all on foreign policy - but YMMV

http://www.ontheissues.org/2016/Bernie_Sanders_Foreign_Policy.htm

Well, he pretty cleary is not a Chomsky disciple, so that is good.

But his "lets stick our heads in the sand and hope it goes away" approach to dealing with islamic radicalism seems pretty terrible.

Also, not hawkish enough on Russia, imho.

Generally kind of a isolationist-lite. Which is terrible, I suppose, but not really safe in the world today, IMO.
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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celedhring

#266
He seems to be a bit of an isolationist. Being "tame" on Islam and Russia stems from that.

EDIT: What Berkut said, weird that I didn't get the usual "somebody has posted" warning.

Admiral Yi

"War is always a last resort" is basically another way of saying no war ever.

Eddie Teach

Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 15, 2016, 11:49:23 AM
"War is always a last resort" is basically another way of saying no war ever.

Nah. Hardly anyone chooses war when their objectives can be reached by other means.
To sleep, perchance to dream. But in that sleep of death, what dreams may come?

Admiral Yi

Quote from: Peter Wiggin on February 15, 2016, 12:38:24 PM
Nah. Hardly anyone chooses war when their objectives can be reached by other means.

Yup.  Alternative resorts are infinite.