The destruction of the wage class, the politics of resentment and Donald Trump

[LaCroix]

Aren't the jobs you mention salary-based? I don't know the conditions in the US, but it would seem odd to me if managers and office admins were paid by the hour. 

oh, right. forgot the thread we're in.

Do you have something against capitalising first letters of sentences?

no, I do it pretty often.

[DGuller]

Aren't the jobs you mention salary-based? I don't know the conditions in the US, but it would seem odd to me if managers and office admins were paid by the hour. 

oh, right. forgot the thread we're in.

Do you have something against capitalising first letters of sentences?

no, I do it pretty often.

FYI, it seems like a small thing, but I often completely skip your posts because reading posts that intentionally ignore grammar or spelling rules is tiring.  I'm not telling you that you should change your unique snowflake writing style, but I'm just laying out one data point here on the effects of it.

[jimmy olsen]

unskilled immigrants from not-mexico haven't flooded the country for probably sixty+ years. it's expensive to get here if you don't live in mexico. so, I'm not sure whether old era immigration can be applied to what happened in the 1990s+. I don't think many post 90s era mexicans moved to the US expecting social mobility. they earned more from mcjobs than they did back home. then the crash hit and there were fewer low-level jobs, so word traveled back that america isn't a hotspot for a good job (mexican standards)

@mono: I thought there was some discussion between Minsky and others (Ide?) that automation hasn't actually reduced all too many jobs... at least so far. but I could be misremembering or I misunderstood that convo.

Lots of immigrants from Central America have come up through Mexico into the US since the '90s.

[grumbler]

Aren't the jobs you mention salary-based? I don't know the conditions in the US, but it would seem odd to me if managers and office admins were paid by the hour. 

oh, right. forgot the thread we're in.

Do you have something against capitalising first letters of sentences?

no, I do it pretty often.

FYI, it seems like a small thing, but I often completely skip your posts because reading posts that intentionally ignore grammar or spelling rules is tiring.  I'm not telling you that you should change your unique snowflake writing style, but I'm just laying out one data point here on the effects of it.

LaCroix:  man, are you  lucky!

[dps]

Incidentally, I think the primary reason for the destruction of the wage class is the total shift in the economy, in a way where the middle level jobs are simply becoming obsolete and disappearing from the market, leaving only either high paying highly skilled creative professional jobs on one end and low paying service jobs (mainly operating some form of "zero hours contracts" and "sharing economy" stuff - neither of which is a good way to live) on the other.

but there's still a need for managers, office admins, IT, etc. how has the economy shifted? manufacturing has had its slow and steady decline, but what else has changed?

Aren't the jobs you mention salary-based? I don't know the conditions in the US, but it would seem odd to me if managers and office admins were paid by the hour. 

Lots of low-level managers are on hourly wages, though many of them are more akin to what you might call a foreman than a professional manager.  As for office admins, well, it depends on the office.

[LaCroix]

FYI, it seems like a small thing, but I often completely skip your posts because reading posts that intentionally ignore grammar or spelling rules is tiring.  I'm not telling you that you should change your unique snowflake writing style, but I'm just laying out one data point here on the effects of it.

I don't think it's that unique

[Eddie Teach]

All I hear when LaCroix posts is "Blah blah, I hate Star Wars."

[Martinus]

Incidentally, I think the primary reason for the destruction of the wage class is the total shift in the economy, in a way where the middle level jobs are simply becoming obsolete and disappearing from the market, leaving only either high paying highly skilled creative professional jobs on one end and low paying service jobs (mainly operating some form of "zero hours contracts" and "sharing economy" stuff - neither of which is a good way to live) on the other.

but there's still a need for managers, office admins, IT, etc. how has the economy shifted? manufacturing has had its slow and steady decline, but what else has changed?

Aren't the jobs you mention salary-based? I don't know the conditions in the US, but it would seem odd to me if managers and office admins were paid by the hour. 

Lots of low-level managers are on hourly wages, though many of them are more akin to what you might call a foreman than a professional manager.  As for office admins, well, it depends on the office.

Wow, that's just bizarre to me. Could the destruction of the "wage class" be also caused by the fact that most businesses are moving to salary-based payments like the rest of the civilised world, leaving only the shittiest job with an hourly wage?

[Tonitrus]

Wow, that's just bizarre to me. Could the destruction of the "wage class" be also caused by the fact that most businesses are moving to salary-based payments like the rest of the civilised world, leaving only the shittiest job with an hourly wage?

I thought most private practice lawyers charge an hourly wage? 

Seriously though, the same with a lot of trade-skill jobs (plumbers, contractors, etc)...in Amerika, at least.  Though one might argue a large difference between charging hours, and being employed on an hourly wage...though often even trade jobs have an "employer" and still work on hourly wages.

Many U.S. civil service jobs also work on hourly wages instead of salaries (police departments, for example).

[Martinus]

Wow, that's just bizarre to me. Could the destruction of the "wage class" be also caused by the fact that most businesses are moving to salary-based payments like the rest of the civilised world, leaving only the shittiest job with an hourly wage?

I thought most private practice lawyers charge an hourly wage? 

Seriously though, the same with a lot of trade-skill jobs (plumbers, contractors, etc)...in Amerika, at least.  Though one might argue a large difference between charging hours, and being employed on an hourly wage...though often even trade jobs have an "employer" and still work on hourly wages.

Many U.S. civil service jobs also work on hourly wages instead of salaries (police departments, for example).

These seem like two completely different things to me.

It is reasonable to charge by the hour if you work in a service industry, when you have flexible working hours and often work for several different people during your work day. On the other hand, if you work a basically 9-5 job, it is completely bonkers to do so.

So, yes, for lawyers, plumbers and contracts make sense to charge by an hour. For office managers, civil servants and policemen it does not.

[Eddie Teach]

The cops like it that way because they get overtime.

[Tonitrus]

I imagine it would work well for, say, factory jobs too...if your country had a bustling manufacturing sector and low unemployment (where that demand for overtime could kick in as well)...but it seems the margin there is much thinner.  Since we've exported most of those jobs overseas...it's not working out so well, for us, or for Asian wage slaves.  That b

[Martinus]

The cops like it that way because they get overtime.

In Europe, most salary jobs get overtime nonetheless. The only jobs where you are not entitled to overtime are higher managerial ones. In fact, wage jobs are the ones that you do not get overtime by definition. 

[Razgovory]

Aren't the jobs you mention salary-based? I don't know the conditions in the US, but it would seem odd to me if managers and office admins were paid by the hour. 

oh, right. forgot the thread we're in.

Do you have something against capitalising first letters of sentences?

no, I do it pretty often.

FYI, it seems like a small thing, but I often completely skip your posts because reading posts that intentionally ignore grammar or spelling rules is tiring.  I'm not telling you that you should change your unique snowflake writing style, but I'm just laying out one data point here on the effects of it.

LaCroix:  man, are you  lucky!

Not as fortunate as I am.

[Monoriu]

Since we've exported most of those jobs overseas...it's not working out so well, for us, or for Asian wage slaves. 

Asian wage slaves can always use more love