Facebook Follies of Friends and Families

[Admiral Yi]

I think that you are defining "unreasonable" in a needlessly narrow manner.  Policies can be unreasonable. Laws can be unreasonable. Beliefs can be unreasonable. Lots of things beyond mere acts can be unreasonable.

Ditto for "productive." There are meanings beyond your narrow economics viewpoint.

Policies, laws, and beliefs are unitary.  Can aggregations, like a federal agency be reasonable or unreasonable?

Is the US Navy reasonable? Please explain your analytic framework so I can apply it to bogh's question.

I don't see how you can assess productivity  divorced from production. Please educate me.

[Zoupa]

 

Good luck guys.

[HVC]

But bogh didnt ask if ICE was reasonable as an agency,  but if their  behavior is reasonable. Behavior is easily understood as policies and beliefs if someone isnt being ungenerous. It makes it easier to answer substitute behavior for policies. Are ICE policies in Minneapolis reasonable?

*edit* And productive is easily quantifiable, and to the best of my knowledge deportations per dollar spent is down and below past presidents. Intimidation and murder of civilians is way up though, so i guess in that regard they're productive.

[HVC]

Yi, to clarify for everyone, and to make things simpler, I propose a thought experiment. Since I get the impression you feel people aren't asking you the right questions, or in the right way, how about you construct a question, or series of questions, that you believe would accurately gauge and explain how I feel about ICEs actions (as an overall trend, not specific incidents) policies and goals... and then answer that (those) question(s) yourself . I mean the best person to ask a question of a person honestly and without malice is probably themselves .  if you're willing and able to oblige me, that is. I don't think anyone is forcing you to answer, they're just perturbed but what many seem to feel is the unnecessary  evasiveness .

*edit* I believe you've given a fair and honest answer below so no need for a thought experiment

[Admiral Yi]

But bogh didnt ask if ICE was reasonable as an agency,  but if their  behavior is reasonable. Behavior is easily understood as policies and beliefs if someone isnt being ungenerous. It makes it easier to answer substitute behavior for policies. Are ICE policies in Minneapolis reasonable?

*edit* And productive is easily quantifiable, and to the best of my knowledge deportations per dollar spent is down and below past presidents. Intimidation and murder of civilians is way up though, so i guess in that regard they're productive.

If we're limiting the discussion to policy then the answer is easy: yes, their policy, as I understand it, is reasonable.

Behavior is harder (at least for me) because it includes all acts, including the shootings. I don't know the formula to convert a finite number of unreasonable acts and a much larger number of reasonable acts into an overall reasonable score.

Yes of course escorting detainees from county jails to ICE facilities will require much less time and manpower than grabbing someone off the street and navigating through protestors back to home base. If that's the comparison you want to use then they are less productive. But it seems unfair to dump that on ICE because that lower productivity is intrinsic to the mission, which they were assigned and did not choose.

[HVC]

But bogh didnt ask if ICE was reasonable as an agency,  but if their  behavior is reasonable. Behavior is easily understood as policies and beliefs if someone isnt being ungenerous. It makes it easier to answer substitute behavior for policies. Are ICE policies in Minneapolis reasonable?

*edit* And productive is easily quantifiable, and to the best of my knowledge deportations per dollar spent is down and below past presidents. Intimidation and murder of civilians is way up though, so i guess in that regard they're productive.

If we're limiting the discussion to policy then the answer is easy: yes, their policy, as I understand it, is reasonable.

Behavior is harder (at least for me) because it includes all acts, including the shootings. I don't know the formula to convert a finite number of unreasonable acts and a much larger number of reasonable acts into an overall reasonable score.

Yes of course escorting detainees from county jails to ICE facilities will require much less time and manpower than grabbing someone off the street and navigating through protestors back to home base. If that's the comparison you want to use then they are less productive. But it seems unfair to dump that on ICE because that lower productivity is intrinsic to the mission, which they were assigned and did not choose.

Thank you for answering. For further clarification, if you would indulge me, I have some follow up questions.

what is ICEs policy as you understand it, as it pertains to your first reply.

For your second point, you're unable to give a score, in your words, now. Do you believe there's a point at which the bad acts could accumulate to a point where there would be a failing score. And if so would you be able to articulate what those acts would be?

And lastly if they're less efficient at their new method of enforcement, both in terms of number of deportations and cost per deportations does that make it bad method (policy?)? If so would you hazard a guess at why they are using/given such a suboptimal policy when there is a proven alternative? and if you're will to entertain this train of thought is it possible that this particular policy has at least something in its intention beyond deporting illegals? My personal train of thought along this track is that the new method leads me to believe that intimidation is at least part (for me a large part) of the new policy, and not just the intimidations of illegals. But I'm (graciously ) willing to accept you don't follow my track of thought.

[Admiral Yi]

Thank you for answering. For further clarification, if you would indulge me, I have some follow up questions.

what is ICEs policy as you understand it, as it pertains to your first reply.

For your second point, you're unable to give a score, in your words, now. Do you believe there's a point at which the bad acts could accumulate to a point where there would be a failing score. And if so would you be able to articulate what those acts would be?

And lastly if they're less efficient at their new method of enforcement, both in terms of number of deportations and cost per deportations does that make it bad method (policy?)? If so would you hazard a guess at why they are using/given such a suboptimal policy when there is a proven alternative? and if you're will to entertain this train of thought is it possible that this particular policy has at least something in its intention beyond deporting illegals? My personal train of thought along this track is that the new method leads me to believe that intimidation is at least part (for me a large part) of the new policy. But I'm (graciously ) willing to accept you don't follow my track of thought.

The policy as I see it is to arrest lots of illegal immigrants on the street and deport them.

I honestly don't know how to answer the reasonable question.  It's written in a language I don't speak. It's like asking me if ICE's behavior is oval.  If you understand the question please, as a favor, tell me your answer and how you got there.

I think Trump purposely picked an unproductive deportation strategy because he's a vampire who prolongs his life by drinking liberul tears. Because he loves dominance behavior. Because it generates more  news coverage about HIM HIM HIM. Because it pleases his voters who think illegal immigration is a CRISIS that demands a RADICAL SOLUTION.

[HVC]

The policy as I see it is to arrest lots of illegal immigrants on the street and deport them.

I honestly don't know how to answer the reasonable question.  It's written in a language I don't speak. It's like asking me if ICE's behavior is oval.  If you understand the question please, as a favor, tell me your answer and how you got there.

I think Trump purposely picked an unproductive deportation strategy because he's a vampire who prolongs his life by drinking liberul tears. Because he loves dominance behavior. Because it generates more  news coverage about HIM HIM HIM. Because it pleases his voters who think illegal immigration is a CRISIS that demands a RADICAL SOLUTION.

I'll try to make the second question more clear. you said you don't have a formula to come to a reasonable score, but could more incidents convince you that that ICEs behaviour is unreasonable absent a formula.  as an answer for me, they've failed my reasonable score because of the increase in deadly incidents and overall intimidation tactics. Tied to the is the very quick defence of the two murders in Minneapolis, the denunciation of the victims, and the refusal for an investigation by both the administration and ICE brass themselves. On the scale of pro cop vs anti cop I'm more on the pro cop side. That being said my pro cop stance rests on rational actions of the cops and investigations to either confirm or refute whether the actions were rational. If they can't even bother to put on a show I can't trust them and can't find their actions reasonable.

I'm confused about your last part now, if Trump picked a unproductive deportation strategy to make liberals cry isn't that a ICE policy? To make liberals cry? Aren't you also saying it's ICE policy to fan fears and aggrandize Trump? And if so does that not make ICE policies unreasonable?

[Zoupa]

They're just following orders, man.

[Admiral Yi]

I'll try to make the second question more clear. you said you don't have a formula to come to a reasonable score, but could more incidents convince you that that ICEs behaviour is unreasonable absent a formula.  as an answer for me, they've failed my reasonable score because of the increase in deadly incidents and overall intimidation tactics. Tied to the is the very quick defence of the two murders in Minneapolis, the denunciation of the victims, and the refusal for an investigation by both the administration and ICE brass themselves. On the scale of pro cop vs anti cop I'm more on the pro cop side. That being said my pro cop stance rests on rational actions of the cops and investigations to either confirm or refute whether the actions were rational. If they can't even bother to put on a show I can't trust them and can't find their actions reasonable.

I'm confused about your last part now, if Trump picked a unproductive deportation strategy to make liberals cry isn't that a ICE policy? To make liberals cry? Aren't you also saying it's ICE policy to fan fears and aggrandize Trump? And if so does that not make ICE policies unreasonable?

So it sounds sort of like a justified outrage score.  Yeah?

The intimidation I know nothing about.  I agree, based on the angle of the front wheels, the first shooting was a bad kill.   I can't tell yet whether the guy with the gun was reaching for his piece.  Tentative bad kill. Totally agree it's a big fuck you to not even investigate the killings. The trash talk about the victims I  pin on the hag at DHS. Also not terrifically outraged by the trash talk because both the victims were dumbasses.

Agreeing more than disagreeing with you, I also assign a score of unreasonable.

The policy is the mission, not the president's political agenda.  It's the job of line agencies to obey lawful commands, not pass judgement on the agenda. To explain the difference, I think Obama's motivation for ordering the Surge 2.0 was to    kick the can down the road to save his political career and legacy. I don't judge the military for endorsing a cynical agenda. I respect them for obeying a lawful order.

[Zoupa]

Also not terrifically outraged by the trash talk because both the victims were dumbasses.

There it is.

[DGuller]

The guy with the gun could not have been reaching for his piece when he was shot, because his piece was many feet away in the hands of another ICE agent by then.

[Admiral Yi]

There it is.

Indeed.

[viper37]

The policy as I see it is to arrest lots of illegal immigrants on the street and deport them.

What is an illegal immigrant?  Please be specific.

[Admiral Yi]

An illegal immigrant is like a person, yeah, kind of, and they do something.  Or maybe they don't.  I'm not sure.