Facebook Follies of Friends and Families

[Admiral Yi]

Why?

Because I don't want to live in a Hobbesian state of nature.

[Barrister]

If BLM wants no more blacks killed in liquor store shootouts or armed carjackings I'm going to have to part ways.

Why?

What Yi is getting at is that police use of force is either justified or it is not justified.

Certainly, we would like to reduce the number of justified use of force incidents.  But that's a rather tricky situation, difficult to accomplish, as police have a variety of duties including to protect bystanders and themselves.

On the other hand, reducing the number of unjustified use of force incidents is somewhat simpler - better police training, and prosecutions in more extreme situations.

BUt what we can't do is just conflate the two.  Different problems, different solutions.  And, as Yi says, if BLM does say that there shouldn't be any police use of force (or use of lethal force), the "I'm going to have to part ways".

[Oexmelin]

I wasn't aware these were the only two choices. I'd rather have my police forces avoid escalating any conflict over property into deadly shootouts in the first place. 

Part of what BLM argues is against the militarization of police forces, claiming, not without reason, that such militarization affects black people disproportionately. I am not aware that they argue for the elimination of police. That's a different kind of utopia.

[Eddie Teach]

I wasn't aware these were the only two choices. I'd rather have my police forces avoid escalating any conflict over property into deadly shootouts in the first place. 

Agreed, but it's not always the cops who escalate.

[Barrister]

I wasn't aware these were the only two choices. I'd rather have my police forces avoid escalating any conflict over property into deadly shootouts in the first place. 

The reason for the police interaction has a lot to do with whether the use of force is justified or not.  I don't know of any use of force guidelines that would allow the use of deadly force over mere possession of illicit property.

[Oexmelin]

I have witnessed first hand cops drawing out guns against fleeing teenagers. Over a stolen Vespa.

[Barrister]

I have witnessed first hand cops drawing out guns against fleeing teenagers. Over a stolen Vespa.

Drawing guns is different than firing guns.  Were they pointing at the suspect, or at low ready (pointing angled downward)?

It can be useful to draw your gun if you think there's a possibility you might need it, even though you have no intention of using it at that time.

[dps]

I have witnessed first hand cops drawing out guns against fleeing teenagers. Over a stolen Vespa.

Were the fleeing teenagers black?  'Cause if they weren't, apparently their lives don't matter.

On a serious note, there are two different but overlapping problems here--excessive use of force/unjustified shootings by police, and racism.  There is certainly some overlap, but they aren't identical, and the potential solutions aren't necessarily identical, either.

[Oexmelin]

Were the fleeing teenagers black? 

Yup.

Cause if they weren't, apparently their lives don't matter.

On a serious note, there are two different but overlapping problems here--excessive use of force/unjustified shootings by police, and racism.  There is certainly some overlap, but they aren't identical, and the potential solutions aren't necessarily identical, either.

No, they are not the same. But there's an awful lot of overlap.

[Oexmelin]

Drawing guns is different than firing guns.  Were they pointing at the suspect, or at low ready (pointing angled downward)?

Sorry, I was too busy getting the fuck out for a thorough measurement of the appropriate angle.

I am sure the police have all sorts of "good reasons" to draw their guns out. I tend to disagree that most are, indeed, good reasons.

[The Minsky Moment]

According to the Washington Post database on police shootings, updated as of 1-22-2020, Black fatalities from police shootings were 223 in 2017, 228 in 2018, and 225 in 2019.  Total fatal shootings were roughly the same each year.  Based on that data there seems to be no change in outcomes over the last 3 years.

I saw that as well.  Unfortunately the Post database doesn't break down justified and unjustified killings.

Correct, however, unless there is some reason to believe that a reduction in unjustified killings has been exactly paralleled with an increase in justified killings, the numbers strongly imply no material change.  The sample size should be large enough to drown out idiosyncratic effects.

[DGuller]

I checked that same database earlier today.  IIRC, the number of shootings of unarmed people did drop by half over the five years.  Given that the number of shootings of unarmed people was low to begin with as a percentage, any movement in that number would be drowned out when you look at the total number of police shootings.  I agree that the total number of shootings may justify a separate conversation, such as how often indisputably bad guys really needed to be shot, but it shouldn't be conflated with the conversation about unarmed civilians getting shot.

[The Minsky Moment]

Hmm so BLM has had some effect?  Less shootings of people without guns, more shootings of people with guns?

No wonder there are so many white guys with guns against BLM. 

[DGuller]

It could also be that dead guys are getting better at arming themselves after the fact.

[Admiral Yi]

Correct, however, unless there is some reason to believe that a reduction in unjustified killings has been exactly paralleled with an increase in justified killings, the numbers strongly imply no material change.  The sample size should be large enough to drown out idiosyncratic effects.

I think exactly the opposite, that the number of unjustifieds is so small that it gets drowned out by the variation in the overall number.