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Started by Syt, December 06, 2015, 01:55:02 PM

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Valmy

I am not really proud of my heritage really...I mean all I did was be born. But I am sort of fond of those people and I enjoy having a personal DNA type connection to them. Pride would seem to suggest that somehow they make me special and I don't think that is true.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Syt

When you think, "Well, at least Mart's analogies weren't *that* bad ..."

I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein's brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops.
—Stephen Jay Gould

Proud owner of 42 Zoupa Points.

Richard Hakluyt

"Pride" is being interpreted quite negatively here. It could also be a motivating factor for ensuring that one's country behaved well, that important traditions of tolerance and fairmindedness are preserved for example.

The problem may be that "pride" has been stolen by so-called patriots with no interest in the larger picture, just in their own bigoted particularism. This puts more thoughtful people off.


The Brain

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on July 16, 2018, 02:36:08 AM
"Pride" is being interpreted quite negatively here. It could also be a motivating factor for ensuring that one's country behaved well, that important traditions of tolerance and fairmindedness are preserved for example.

The problem may be that "pride" has been stolen by so-called patriots with no interest in the larger picture, just in their own bigoted particularism. This puts more thoughtful people off.

Well it IS a deadly sin.
Women want me. Men want to be with me.

Malthus

"Pride in one's heritage or attributes" appears to have a different meaning than "pride" does in other contexts. It usually means "a feeling of self-worth, support and interest". It's the opposite of "ashamed". 

As in the "Gay Pride Parade" in Toronto. It makes no sense to be "proud" of being gay (any more than it makes sense to be 'proud' of being straight), but everyone understands what it means - 'we are open about who we are and not ashamed of it'.

The problem is that, while this works for minorities who have traditionally been oppressed, it is more problematic for majorities who have not ... but no better term has been invented. 
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane—Marcus Aurelius

garbon

Well, yes, in that sense it is pride in something that you were raised/told to be ashamed about (i.e. being black, being gay, being a woman).
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Malthus

Quote from: garbon on July 16, 2018, 08:24:08 AM
Well, yes, in that sense it is pride in something that you were raised/told to be ashamed about (i.e. being black, being gay, being a woman).

Exactly. It's basically reactive.

That's why "Gay Pride" or "Black Pride" makes intuitive sense, but "Straight Pride" or "White Pride" is more problematic - in real life, most people would assume, in the latter cases, that what the person was "reacting against" was gays and blacks (or other minorities).

Black Pride = a minority reacting against a history of oppression; asserting their right to self-worth. The message: 'we have every right to equal treatment; we are not ashamed of who we are'.

White Pride = a majority asserting its dominance. 

... thinking further, it seems to me that this is the issue on which labels such as "White" or "Black" make sense as group identifiers. To have pride in one's heritage, for the majority, isn't or should not be a matter of the social constrict race, but of some other characteristic (national origin, etc.). "White pride" only makes sense in the context of White/non-White relations, but other characteristics ("Ukrainian Pride"?) can make sense outside of that.
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane—Marcus Aurelius

Valmy

Any sort of ethnic pride, even when that is an ethnicity that gets shit on regularly, always makes me a bit nervous. But nationalism of any sort makes me feel that way. I mean there is only a small step from 'black pride' which is healthy in a US context, to some sort of black nationalism or black separatism which is not. Or at least it seems that way to me. But I could be wrong.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Razgovory

Quote from: Valmy on July 15, 2018, 06:28:36 PM
I am not really proud of my heritage really...I mean all I did was be born. But I am sort of fond of those people and I enjoy having a personal DNA type connection to them. Pride would seem to suggest that somehow they make me special and I don't think that is true.


I was born special.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

dps

Quote from: Malthus on July 16, 2018, 08:35:53 AM
Quote from: garbon on July 16, 2018, 08:24:08 AM
Well, yes, in that sense it is pride in something that you were raised/told to be ashamed about (i.e. being black, being gay, being a woman).

Exactly. It's basically reactive.

That's why "Gay Pride" or "Black Pride" makes intuitive sense, but "Straight Pride" or "White Pride" is more problematic - in real life, most people would assume, in the latter cases, that what the person was "reacting against" was gays and blacks (or other minorities).

Black Pride = a minority reacting against a history of oppression; asserting their right to self-worth. The message: 'we have every right to equal treatment; we are not ashamed of who we are'.

White Pride = a majority asserting its dominance. 

... thinking further, it seems to me that this is the issue on which labels such as "White" or "Black" make sense as group identifiers. To have pride in one's heritage, for the majority, isn't or should not be a matter of the social constrict race, but of some other characteristic (national origin, etc.). "White pride" only makes sense in the context of White/non-White relations, but other characteristics ("Ukrainian Pride"?) can make sense outside of that.

There's also the concept of "civic pride" which is viewed as a positive.  When I hear of someone taking pride in their heritage, I view it along the same lines of civic pride.  Pride in one's own heritage need not involve dislike of people of other heritages.

Valmy

Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

crazy canuck

Quote from: Syt on July 16, 2018, 02:27:13 AM
When you think, "Well, at least Mart's analogies weren't *that* bad ..."



Wait, Trump is going to charge admission fees for anyone who wants a Green Card.

Tamas

That has been in place since forever. If you invest X amount of money in the country you get a visa.

crazy canuck

Quote from: Tamas on July 16, 2018, 11:21:22 AM
That has been in place since forever. If you invest X amount of money in the country you get a visa.

Hasn't been for just anyone who wants to enter  ;)

grumbler

Quote from: crazy canuck on July 16, 2018, 02:01:20 PM
Quote from: Tamas on July 16, 2018, 11:21:22 AM
That has been in place since forever. If you invest X amount of money in the country you get a visa.

Hasn't been for just anyone who wants to enter  ;)

Only Norwegians.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!