Facebook Follies of Friends and Families

[Jacob]

I really think Jordan Peterson is just someone who was broken by fame.

It certainly didn't help, that's pretty clear.

You can agree or disagree with much of what he said for years, but it was all fairly benign very small-c conservative mindset kind of stuff.  I'm not sure if you consider those kind of views to be "shitty" or not, although I have my guesses.

The stuff I objected to was not the fairly benign very small-c conservative mindset kind of stuff (that's what I meant by "facade"), but rather the actual shitty things he occasionally let slip through.

I assume that's what you were guessing.

But yeah, as his fame grew, and he became increasingly under attack, and as his fans more identified as Trumpy and conspiracy-minded, his views kind of changed as well.  And where to even begin with his medically-induced come in Russia of all places to treat a drug dependence.  Or the all-meat diet.

He definitely "jumped the shark" to my mind.

We can definitely agree he's jumped the shark at this point, even if we don't agree at what specific point he did it.

[Jacob]

Sure.  Most current problems I wouldn't directly attribute to the grassroots authoritarianism of the woke left, although they're a contributing party for a fair share of them.  Right wing authoritarianism wouldn't be as popular as it is in many countries today without left wing authoritarianism breeding a lot of resentment.

How significant a contributor do you think it's been (ballpark, obviously)? Is it minor (say 5-10%), significant (20-30%), or by far the single most important contributor (50+%)?

I feel like you bring it up consistently - almost to the exclusion of other factors. It makes me think that you think it's the most important factor, but maybe it just means it's the one you like to talk about the most - so I thought I'd ask.

[Jacob]

https://twitter.com/HeerJeet/status/1575189275326431233/photo/1

[Razgovory]

I think it was Grumbler.

I know it wasn't me. I said mean things about Peterson pretty much from the get-go, because I thought his "reasonable points" were mostly a facade for shittiness.

I am pleased that we now seem to have a fairly broad consensus on his merits.

I know basically nothing about Jordan Peterson.  The only thing I've heard from him is this

So basically, he's a video game character.  At least as far as I know.

[DGuller]

How significant a contributor do you think it's been (ballpark, obviously)? Is it minor (say 5-10%), significant (20-30%), or by far the single most important contributor (50+%)?

Probably significant.  I think Rupert Murdoch is the biggest reason, and just like Russian propaganda, he doesn't need valid gripes to have success in total brainwashing of a significant portion of the populace.

I feel like you bring it up consistently - almost to the exclusion of other factors. It makes me think that you think it's the most important factor, but maybe it just means it's the one you like to talk about the most - so I thought I'd ask.

No, it's just the one I talk about most here.  You tend to talk more about subjects where there is no obvious agreement.  Pretty much everyone here on Languish (who's still on Languish) agrees that extreme right wing is bad news, so what's the point of talking about it?  May as well discuss how the sky is blue. 

Obviously there is less of a consensus over the woke left, so that gets discussed more.  It's also a more controllable factor:  deprogramming fascists is nearly impossible, but hopefully getting the left to stop scoring own goals is not. 

Apart from that, there are also different expectations, which may or may not be fair.  I expect right wingers to be authoritarian, that's one of the reasons I'm not one, but I don't want to accept authoritarianism on my own side.

[Jacob]

Probably significant.  I think Rupert Murdoch is the biggest reason, and just like Russian propaganda, he doesn't need valid gripes to have success in total brainwashing of a significant portion of the populace.

I agree on Murdoch and his fellow travelers. I think other major contributors is how social media and big data has been curated (and not curated), and how limits on money in American politics have been removed which a number of very rich people with right wing agendas (and actors from hostile states with destabilizing agendas) are leveraging as much as possible.

We probably disagree on the level of impact of authoritarian leftists. It's not non-zero, but the reason I think it's less is the reason you gave - the Murdoch media machine (and the other factors I rate) doesn't actually need real substance to work, they can manufacture and amplify to suit their needs.

But like I said, I'll agree the impact is less than zero (and I can also find examples that I personally find viscerally repellent).

No, it's just the one I talk about most here.  You tend to talk more about subjects where there is no obvious agreement.  Pretty much everyone here on Languish (who's still on Languish) agrees that extreme right wing is bad news, so what's the point of talking about it?  May as well discuss how the sky is blue. 

Obviously there is less of a consensus over the woke left, so that gets discussed more.  It's also a more controllable factor:  deprogramming fascists is nearly impossible, but hopefully getting the left to stop scoring own goals is not. 

Apart from that, there are also different expectations, which may or may not be fair.  I expect right wingers to be authoritarian, that's one of the reasons I'm not one, but I don't want to accept authoritarianism on my own side.

A reasonable answer. I'm glad I asked

[Berkut]

Is there any current problem you don't attribute to wokeists being mean to reasonable people?

Sure.  Most current problems I wouldn't directly attribute to the grassroots authoritarianism of the woke left, although they're a contributing party for a fair share of them.  Right wing authoritarianism wouldn't be as popular as it is in many countries today without left wing authoritarianism breeding a lot of resentment.

Trump did make both the radical right and the radical left so much worse. 

Which has really left the sane people kind of lost.

[Jacob]

Trump did make both the radical right and the radical left so much worse.

I which areas did the radical left get so much worse after Trump? Genuine question, as I disengaged from following American politics significantly after Trump got elected (and I haven't fully reengaged yet).

[Josquius]

Trump did make both the radical right and the radical left so much worse.

I which areas did the radical left get so much worse after Trump? Genuine question, as I disengaged from following American politics significantly after Trump got elected (and I haven't fully reengaged yet).

They've been given press attention that vastly outstrips their actual size and power.

[crazy canuck]

It would also be helpful to know what left leaning Americans think the radical left is.

[Berkut]

Some examples:

Seeing actual scientists say that masking is important to control the spread of Covid, but that doesn't apply to a riot for BLM.

The continuing rise in cancel culture and the desire to shut down dissenting views rather then out argue them

The general increase in polarism that has been measured objectively on both sides

Crap like the 1419 project focus on race as the (seemingly) sole determinant of history and society.

Defund the police. 

Some of these may not be directly linked to Trump of course. Correlation not being causation and all. But I cannot help but suspect that the radicalization of the right is not just coincident with the (lesser but still noticeable) radicalization we are seeing on the left.

[Berkut]

It would also be helpful to know what left leaning Americans think the radical left is.

I think answering that question from you would be uniquely not helpful to anyone.

[crazy canuck]

It would also be helpful to know what left leaning Americans think the radical left is.

I think answering that question from you would be uniquely not helpful to anyone.

Its ok, I did not have you in mind as someone I was hoping to answer my question.

[Jacob]

Some examples:

Seeing actual scientists say that masking is important to control the spread of Covid, but that doesn't apply to a riot for BLM.

The continuing rise in cancel culture and the desire to shut down dissenting views rather then out argue them

The general increase in polarism that has been measured objectively on both sides

Crap like the 1419 project focus on race as the (seemingly) sole determinant of history and society.

Defund the police.

Some of these may not be directly linked to Trump of course. Correlation not being causation and all. But I cannot help but suspect that the radicalization of the right is not just coincident with the (lesser but still noticeable) radicalization we are seeing on the left.

Cool, thanks

[grumbler]

I think of the "radical left" in the US as those who advocate violating the laws that they consider unjust, or just advocating violence in pursuit of "justice."  Things like the various Portland Oregon "autonomous zones" where police were evicted, or those in Seattle.  Groups like the John Brown Gun Club/Redneck Revolt that argue for the use of violence against capitalists as well as racists.  I think that those kinds of movements are less active in the Trump/post-Trump era than during, say, the 1960s, but are up compared to, say, the Obama years.