Trump is a fascist.

[alfred russel]

But I think a minimum qualification to qualify as a fascist is to replace democracy with a strong central government devoid of checks and balances and protected from bad election results. Or at least try to do so.

not many leaders today would try to do that at once.
But if you look at Chavez, Erdogan, Putin, they all were moving toward that.  Chavez died before completing his act.  The other two are still reshaping their countries into more authoritarian and less democratic nations.

Chavez is clearly not a fascist. Authoritarian socialist and possibly communist, but not fascist. He was really just another south american caudillo.

[alfred russel]

Above all, what does Trump believe in? Draconian immigration stances get the headlines, but what Trump's career has really been about, and what he continues to lobby for today, is capitalism. He strongly advocates capitalism and is proposing slashing taxes to an even more massive extent than most of the "starve the beast" advocates in the republican party.

He doesn't actually believe in that though. If one assumes the political stances he held for decades before he decided the GOP base was gullible enough to elect him are his real beliefs, his real economic beliefs are closer to Sanders than to Clinton. He was for universal single payer health care.

He doesn't really believe in capitalism and tax cuts? You think he is a socialist?

Fuck tim, that is dumber than the ebolapocolypse that you predicted.

[jimmy olsen]

Above all, what does Trump believe in? Draconian immigration stances get the headlines, but what Trump's career has really been about, and what he continues to lobby for today, is capitalism. He strongly advocates capitalism and is proposing slashing taxes to an even more massive extent than most of the "starve the beast" advocates in the republican party.

He doesn't actually believe in that though. If one assumes the political stances he held for decades before he decided the GOP base was gullible enough to elect him are his real beliefs, his real economic beliefs are closer to Sanders than to Clinton. He was for universal single payer health care.

He doesn't really believe in capitalism and tax cuts? You think he is a socialist?

Sanders isn't a socialist, so no. I don't think people who agree with him on universal health care are socialists either.

Just going by decades worth of public statements by the Donald. Unless he was visited by the ghost of Barry Goldwater after a near death experience, I'm going to attribute his recent and very convenient about face on the subject to be the act of a political chameleon rather than a scincere conversion.

[Josquius]

Sanders isn't a socialist, so no. I don't think people who agree with him on universal health care are socialists either.

Isn't he the guy who isn't just on the American left but might actually count as a left wing candidate in other countries too?
The one who says "Yes I'm a socialist"?

[Barrister]

Yeah, I don't get where Jimmy is coming from.  Sanders repeatedly refers to himself as a "democratic socialist".

He even gave a whole speech on what that means recently.

http://www.vox.com/2015/11/19/9762028/bernie-sanders-democratic-socialism

[Eddie Teach]

Isn't he the guy who isn't just on the American left but might actually count as a left wing candidate in other countries too?

That would be most of them, unless you think every Democrat is part of "the American left".

And yeah, Sanders is a [mccain] socialist [/mccain]

[miozozny]

Sanders isn't a socialist, so no. I don't think people who agree with him on universal health care are socialists either.

Isn't he the guy who isn't just on the American left but might actually count as a left wing candidate in other countries too?
The one who says "Yes I'm a socialist"?

Politicians lie.

[crazy canuck]

Yeah, I don't get where Jimmy is coming from.  Sanders repeatedly refers to himself as a "democratic socialist".

He even gave a whole speech on what that means recently.

http://www.vox.com/2015/11/19/9762028/bernie-sanders-democratic-socialism

We have had this discussion on Languish before.  The American understanding of the word "socialist" is a bit confused.  When they use it, they don't mean it to mean the person advocates socialism.   It is more like what would be accepted as mainstream social democratic values in any other country.  Sanders has made that point repeatedly.

[grumbler]

Yeah, I don't get where Jimmy is coming from.  Sanders repeatedly refers to himself as a "democratic socialist".

He even gave a whole speech on what that means recently.

http://www.vox.com/2015/11/19/9762028/bernie-sanders-democratic-socialism

Sander's version of socialism probably wouldn't be considered socialist at all by any actual socialists.  Sanders' socialism is about restoring the middle class.  "True" socialism is about uplifting the working class and rural poor.

So, Saunders may call himself a "socialist," but he's only a socialist in the sense that, say, Tony Blair was a socialist.

[MadImmortalMan]

Just going by decades worth of public statements by the Donald. Unless he was visited by the ghost of Barry Goldwater after a near death experience, I'm going to attribute his recent and very convenient about face on the subject to be the act of a political chameleon rather than a scincere conversion.

At least he's being honest about being an insufferable jerk though. 

[alfred russel]

Sander's version of socialism probably wouldn't be considered socialist at all by any actual socialists.  Sanders' socialism is about restoring the middle class.  "True" socialism is about uplifting the working class and rural poor.

So, Saunders may call himself a "socialist," but he's only a socialist in the sense that, say, Tony Blair was a socialist.

Who are these "actual socialists"?

Sanders labels himself a socialist, and is well within the mainstream of european socialist parties belonging to the socialist international. Tony Blair belonged to a party that had such an affiliation, but Blair also moved his party to the right and ultimately it left behind the affiliation.

I think the distinction you draw between "restoring the middle class" and "uplifting the working class and rural poor" is semantic. Sanders is for expanding the middle class, and I strongly suspect his version of such an expansion would have it include the working class and rural poor.

[Valmy]

Yeah, I don't get where Jimmy is coming from.  Sanders repeatedly refers to himself as a "democratic socialist".

He even gave a whole speech on what that means recently.

http://www.vox.com/2015/11/19/9762028/bernie-sanders-democratic-socialism

We have had this discussion on Languish before.  The American understanding of the word "socialist" is a bit confused.  When they use it, they don't mean it to mean the person advocates socialism.   It is more like what would be accepted as mainstream social democratic values in any other country.  Sanders has made that point repeatedly.

The American understanding of "socialist" is somebody who is a Democrat but otherwise has no policies at all that could be considered "socialist" because it is a partisan slur rather than a reference to anything in particular.

[Valmy]

Proving Donald Trump a fascist is only going to increase his poll numbers.

[grumbler]

Who are these "actual socialists"?

Those who call for social ownership of the means of production (as opposed to private ownership); you know, the ones who subscribe to the defining characteristic of socialism.

Sanders labels himself a socialist, and is well within the mainstream of european socialist parties belonging to the socialist international. Tony Blair belonged to a party that had such an affiliation, but Blair also moved his party to the right and ultimately it left behind the affiliation.

Saunders is not a member of a party that belongs to the Socialist International, nor is Blair (thus the comparison).  It doesn't really matter what Saunders calls himself.

I think the distinction you draw between "restoring the middle class" and "uplifting the working class and rural poor" is semantic. Sanders is for expanding the middle class, and I strongly suspect his version of such an expansion would have it include the working class and rural poor.

Your re-wording of Saunders' definition of socialism sounds like semantics.  If Saunders has ever advocated in Congress for the nationalization of large US corporations, I haven't heard of it.  It certainly isn't in his current platform, nor any of his platforms since he was in the LUP in the 1970s.

[Martinus]

Sander's version of socialism probably wouldn't be considered socialist at all by any actual socialists.  Sanders' socialism is about restoring the middle class.  "True" socialism is about uplifting the working class and rural poor.

So, Saunders may call himself a "socialist," but he's only a socialist in the sense that, say, Tony Blair was a socialist.

Who are these "actual socialists"?

Sanders labels himself a socialist, and is well within the mainstream of european socialist parties belonging to the socialist international. Tony Blair belonged to a party that had such an affiliation, but Blair also moved his party to the right and ultimately it left behind the affiliation.

I think the distinction you draw between "restoring the middle class" and "uplifting the working class and rural poor" is semantic. Sanders is for expanding the middle class, and I strongly suspect his version of such an expansion would have it include the working class and rural poor.

By the same token, if Trump isn't a fascist, who are the "actual fascists"?