The Paris Attack Debate Thread

[Admiral Yi]

They pretty much do don't they?
Not in that same way  but certainly in a "these violent picks aren't real Muslims. Their interpretation is dumb" way.

That's what we have right now.

[Valmy]

Yep. Muslims, at least the ones I like, have been saying beautiful things and condemning the extremists long before anybody ever flew a plane into the World Trade Center. The extremists don't like them and will not listen. As far they are concerned peaceful Muslims are just tools of the infidel.

[garbon]

Yeah, I don't think the argument "Bible says this vs. Quran says this" really gets us anywhere. The fact it Islam is overrepresented these days as a hotbed for violent extremism. That does not mean it should be banned - but it means that looking closer at its adherents is not racial profiling but simply sensible allocation of limited resources available to national security. Just as having a higher premium for motor insurance for younger people is not discrimination.

Except it does become racial profiling as carried out by the general populace.

[Valmy]

Except it does become racial profiling as carried out by the general populace.

Well that is going to happen anyway. They are from a different culture and have a habit of making bad headlines. Like how much gun toting southern rednecks are hated and feared by everybody on the coasts.

I don't think we have to adjust our national security resource allocations in order to try to stop that from happening. I think those are pretty independent things.

We should also be keeping an eye on angry lonely white guys as well.

[garbon]

Except it does become racial profiling as carried out by the general populace.

Well that is going to happen anyway. They are from a different culture and have a habit of making bad headlines. Like how much gun toting southern rednecks are hated and feared by everybody on the coasts.

I don't think we have to adjust our national security resource allocations in order to try to stop that from happening. I think those are pretty independent things.

We should also be keeping an eye on angry lonely white guys as well.

But it doesn't stop there. It spreads to lots of other brown skinned people who have the 'right' look.

Also, I think it is misguided to say that gov't policy has no effect on people's attitudes. The government deems 'those people' a threat and that has no effect on how people feel about them?

[Zanza]

Feel free to be a Schlechtmensch instead, duque...

Being lectured by a self-loathing, self-proclaimed anti-racist known for derogatory comments against Portuguese people after reading non-PC comments by a couple of Portuguese: priceless!

Known for derogatory comments against Portuguese? Eh, I am pretty certain that I have virtually never posted anything about Portugal because I actually don't have an opinion (just did a forum search and it turned out 20 posts in total - most from EUIV). I reacted to Martin now as he specifically picked me for being a naive German, but that's about it. I admit that I should have kept it to him and not referred to his home though. 

That said, you seem to have a surprisingly strong opinion about me. No idea how I earned that, but I guess you are right. I am a self-proclaimed anti-racist, not self-loathingly but proudly so. 

[Caliga]

This gun-toting redneck hasn't been able to carry since late September because I had to get a new license on account of moving and the state keeps accidentally sending it to the wrong County sheriff. 

[Duque de Bragança]

Feel free to be a Schlechtmensch instead, duque...

Being lectured by a self-loathing, self-proclaimed anti-racist known for derogatory comments against Portuguese people after reading non-PC comments by a couple of Portuguese: priceless!

Known for derogatory comments against Portuguese? Eh, I am pretty certain that I have virtually never posted anything about Portugal because I actually don't have an opinion (just did a forum search and it turned out 20 posts in total - most from EUIV). I reacted to Martin now as he specifically picked me for being a naive German, but that's about it. I admit that I should have kept it to him and not referred to his home though. 

That said, you seem to have a surprisingly strong opinion about me. No idea how I earned that, but I guess you are right. I am a self-proclaimed anti-racist, not self-loathingly but proudly so. 

Funny you still think of self-loathing as if it were 19th century Jew-style. Things change your know.

[Valmy]

But it doesn't stop there. It spreads to lots of other brown skinned people who have the 'right' look.

Also, I think it is misguided to say that gov't policy has no effect on people's attitudes. The government deems 'those people' a threat and that has no effect on how people feel about them?

It was already there.

I think it is misguided that the government cannot make informed choices on where its resources are best used for fear of stirring up the bigots. The bigots are going to bigot. I am not interested in choosing a losing security strategy to accommodate them. When young angry lonely white guys post violent fury on social media that needs to attract law enforcement's attention. I am not going to be upset they are not similarly monitoring old Latina ladies.

[Zanza]

You lost me there. I have no idea what you want to say to me.

[Valmy]

This gun-toting redneck hasn't been able to carry since late September because I had to get a new license on account of moving and the state keeps accidentally sending it to the wrong County sheriff. 

Somebody in New England is smiling at this development.

[Warspite]

There is much to be said about the different variants of Islam and their role in the radicalisation, recruitment and mobilisation of terrorist networks. But on the other hand, it wasn't so long ago that distinctly non-Islamist, nationalist groups were the big transnational terrorist threat. Which leads me to suspect that focusing on Islam as the key variable may miss out some important social, economic and political factors. To name one, the pervasive tradition of political violence in Middle Eastern and North African politics. When even in the twenty-first century, the government's answer to demands for reform  eight times out of ten are barrels bombs or mass death sentences, it is depressingly unsurprising that angry young men turn to violence. A huge part of the appeal of ISIS in the Sunni areas of Iraq and Syria is the "fuck you" it sends to the real and perceived oppressors, namely other Arabs and minorities, and the West.

[garbon]

It was already there.

I think it is misguided that the government cannot make informed choices on where its resources are best used for fear of stirring up the bigots. The bigots are going to bigot. I am not interested in choosing a losing security strategy to accommodate them.

Ah so being bigoted is just a binary? You either are or are not? No varying degrees of bigotry?

Anyway, I think the idea isn't that the government can't or shouldn't pursue such policies but it should do so with caution. Exactly like what happens with racial profiling.

When young angry lonely white guys post violent fury on social media that needs to attract law enforcement's attention. I am not going to be upset they are not similarly monitoring old Latina ladies.

That strikes me as bizarre. Shouldn't you be monitoring those who 'post violent fury on social media' even if there skin isn't white? What difference does that make?

[Josquius]

The Islamic extremists want to kill us.
The far right want to destroy the very core of who we are.
We can't let them take advantage of this.

[Valmy]

Ah so being bigoted is just a binary? You either are or are not? No varying degrees of bigotry?

Anyway, I think the idea isn't that the government can't or shouldn't pursue such policies but it should do so with caution. Exactly like what happens with racial profiling.

The kind of person who would decide all brown people are terrorists is rather a binary equation.

Anyway I can agree with the second part. Caution is reasonable.

That strikes me as bizarre. Shouldn't you be monitoring those who 'post violent fury on social media' even if there skin isn't white? What difference does that make?

It makes a great deal of difference. Many people say angry things online. But when a person who fits the profile of 90% of the people who take those angry things and turn them into mass shootings do so I think that justifies some extra vigilance.