Shootings and explosions in Paris

[Martinus]

BTW this is the weakest point in the act of praying. Twist it how you want, it means you think you are able to influence omnipotent God to change his mind.

Well, if you believe in free will, it should follow that God will sometimes treat you differently depending on what choices you have made.

If there is such a thing as free will then in what circumstances would God ever intervene?

When God wanted to? I guess I don't understand the deep theological question at hand.

If there is free will then God would never intervene because then he would be interfering with free will.  example, someone prays for good grades and God sends an angel to them to tell them about the questions that will be on the test? God rewards the person who prays rather than allowing the person who spent that time studying to do better than the person who effectively cheated by deciding to pray rather than study?

What will happen when that same person prays to become US president.  Will God interfere with the free will of all the voters who think that person is nutters and install them as president?

The point is that the belief that God answers prayers ignores the impact that answering the prayers has on everyone else.  It is a very individualistic view of the word.

I would say that "prayer" (and other similar techniques, like meditation) are not meant to cause a change in the outside world as much as in our perception of it. So "praying for good grades" would be essentially about putting yourself in a focused state of mind allowing you to analyse and answer the questions better. You would still need to know the subject, of course (hence the "God helps those who help themselves" saying).

[Valmy]

And being all powerful and all knowing God could also not be all loving (as the New Testament teaches).

You should check out Erhman's book about just this issue called "God's Problem" iirc.

I am well aware of this problem. It is an unsolvable paradox for those who turn to religion to make make sense of why things happen in the world. But I am not one of those people so it does not bother me much.

[Valmy]

I would say that "prayer" (and other similar techniques, like meditation) are not meant to cause a change in the outside world as much as in our perception of it. So "praying for good grades" would be essentially about putting yourself in a focused state of mind allowing you to analyse and answer the questions better. You would still need to know the subject, of course (hence the "God helps those who help themselves" saying).

At least that is roughly the role it plays in my life and why I do it.

[Martinus]

BTW this is the weakest point in the act of praying. Twist it how you want, it means you think you are able to influence omnipotent God to change his mind.

Well, if you believe in free will, it should follow that God will sometimes treat you differently depending on what choices you have made.

If there is such a thing as free will then in what circumstances would God ever intervene?

When God wanted to? I guess I don't understand the deep theological question at hand.

If there is free will then God would never intervene because then he would be interfering with free will.  example, someone prays for good grades and God sends an angel to them to tell them about the questions that will be on the test? God rewards the person who prays rather than allowing the person who spent that time studying to do better than the person who effectively cheated by deciding to pray rather than study?

What will happen when that same person prays to become US president.  Will God interfere with the free will of all the voters who think that person is nutters and install them as president?

The point is that the belief that God answers prayers ignores the impact that answering the prayers has on everyone else.  It is a very individualistic view of the word.

In Judaism, with the exception of the Kabbalists (some of whom view prayer as a sort of magic), traditionally the purpose of prayer was not to influence God in any way, but to influence the person making the prayer - basically, to have the proper appreciation of the divine.

Most Jewish prayers though take the form of elaborately praising God - as with so much in Judaism, the traditional explanation (derived from the great medieval Jewish rationalists like Maimonides) probably developed as a rationalization of a much more primitive supplication ceremony, together with sacrifices and the like.

Even the Kabbalists (and Qabalists) are divided on the effects of "magic" - Dion Fortune thought it just causes changes in the magic worker. Crowley thought it changes the outside world - ultimately it doesn't really matter, if you consider how much of the outside world is just our perception of it.

[Valmy]

Ugh. Where did you hear that garbage from Marty?

Wha?

About the Turks chanting 'Allahu Ackbar'. Liep makes it sound like they were chanting in support of Paris not Daesh.

[Martinus]

If there is free will then God would never intervene because then he would be interfering with free will.  example, someone prays for good grades and God sends an angel to them to tell them about the questions that will be on the test? God rewards the person who prays rather than allowing the person who spent that time studying to do better than the person who effectively cheated by deciding to pray rather than study?

What will happen when that same person prays to become US president.  Will God interfere with the free will of all the voters who think that person is nutters and install them as president?

The point is that the belief that God answers prayers ignores the impact that answering the prayers has on everyone else.  It is a very individualistic view of the word.

I believe in prayer.

Now to me God isn't some kind of wish-granting genie so I never pray for something trivial like answers on a test or lottery numbers.  I mostly stick with prayers of thanks, or for the health and safety of others.  I suspect those are the kinds of prayers God is most receptive to answering.

I have no problem with you giving thanks to your God.  That at least seems logical to me if one holds that there is free will. But the moment you start using language like your God "answers" a prayer then that implies some from of intervention in daily affairs that puts the lie to free will.  If you are right then life is a rigged game and all one needs to do is pray.  Its worse then predestination because if one beliefs that prayers are answered then the game rigging varies depending on how much God favours one group over the other.  If you are right God has a hell of a problem on Friday nights in Texas trying to decide which players should get injured and which teams should win.

I think God can also "answer" your prayer by making you realise what you are asking for is not what you really want/need but just a whim. Essentially, prayer is a form of self-therapy. And I am not even claiming there is noone out there who actually answers those - but whether it is a "God" or your super ego/some other part of yourself ("your soul") is really a moot point. The point is those techniques work.

[Barrister]

I would say that "prayer" (and other similar techniques, like meditation) are not meant to cause a change in the outside world as much as in our perception of it. So "praying for good grades" would be essentially about putting yourself in a focused state of mind allowing you to analyse and answer the questions better. You would still need to know the subject, of course (hence the "God helps those who help themselves" saying).

To each their own, but many/most Christians are praying for a change in the world.

One example - when my sister in law was pregnant with twins, the doctors were saying all sorts of terrible things were going to happen to them, they had very little chance of surviving.  I would pray that those babies would be healthy - and so did other family members.  And when they were born precisely zero of the things the doctors were worried about happened.

[Valmy]

I would say that "prayer" (and other similar techniques, like meditation) are not meant to cause a change in the outside world as much as in our perception of it. So "praying for good grades" would be essentially about putting yourself in a focused state of mind allowing you to analyse and answer the questions better. You would still need to know the subject, of course (hence the "God helps those who help themselves" saying).

To each their own, but many/most Christians are praying for a change in the world.

One example - when my sister in law was pregnant with twins, the doctors were saying all sorts of terrible things were going to happen to them, they had very little chance of surviving.  I would pray that those babies would be healthy - and so did other family members.  And when they were born precisely zero of the things the doctors were worried about happened.

Free will was violated

[Martinus]

I would say that "prayer" (and other similar techniques, like meditation) are not meant to cause a change in the outside world as much as in our perception of it. So "praying for good grades" would be essentially about putting yourself in a focused state of mind allowing you to analyse and answer the questions better. You would still need to know the subject, of course (hence the "God helps those who help themselves" saying).

To each their own, but many/most Christians are praying for a change in the world.

One example - when my sister in law was pregnant with twins, the doctors were saying all sorts of terrible things were going to happen to them, they had very little chance of surviving.  I would pray that those babies would be healthy - and so did other family members.  And when they were born precisely zero of the things the doctors were worried about happened.

But then it could have also been because knowledge that all these people are praying for her well being put your sister in law in a state of mind which reduced her stress and her body did not suffer any "malfunction" which would result in all these bad things happening.

But as I said, the point is moot - reality is after all 99% of our perception, so whether you are changing the world or it is just in your head doesn't matter (as someone once said "It's all in your head - you just don't realise how big your head is"). What matters is, it works - and belief (whatever it is) is crucial in making it work.

[garbon]

I would say that "prayer" (and other similar techniques, like meditation) are not meant to cause a change in the outside world as much as in our perception of it. So "praying for good grades" would be essentially about putting yourself in a focused state of mind allowing you to analyse and answer the questions better. You would still need to know the subject, of course (hence the "God helps those who help themselves" saying).

To each their own, but many/most Christians are praying for a change in the world.

One example - when my sister in law was pregnant with twins, the doctors were saying all sorts of terrible things were going to happen to them, they had very little chance of surviving.  I would pray that those babies would be healthy - and so did other family members.  And when they were born precisely zero of the things the doctors were worried about happened.

Free will was violated

Who was the free will on how they are born?

[Martinus]

I would say that "prayer" (and other similar techniques, like meditation) are not meant to cause a change in the outside world as much as in our perception of it. So "praying for good grades" would be essentially about putting yourself in a focused state of mind allowing you to analyse and answer the questions better. You would still need to know the subject, of course (hence the "God helps those who help themselves" saying).

To each their own, but many/most Christians are praying for a change in the world.

One example - when my sister in law was pregnant with twins, the doctors were saying all sorts of terrible things were going to happen to them, they had very little chance of surviving.  I would pray that those babies would be healthy - and so did other family members.  And when they were born precisely zero of the things the doctors were worried about happened.

Free will was violated

Who was the free will on how they are born?

Dalai Lama and Jesus. Duh. 

[Martinus]

Ugh. Where did you hear that garbage from Marty?

Wha?

About the Turks chanting 'Allahu Ackbar'. Liep makes it sound like they were chanting in support of Paris not Daesh.

Fireblade and Daily Mail. 

[mongers]

Police say 5,000 rounds were fired in this mornings seige/raid, no indication if that's just the police or if it includes the terrorists. Substantial damage to the 3rd floor flat.

[Duque de Bragança]

French media say it's the police special forces.

[Valmy]

Fireblade and Daily Mail. 

Ah. Well that explains it.