Shootings and explosions in Paris

[crazy canuck]

BTW this is the weakest point in the act of praying. Twist it how you want, it means you think you are able to influence omnipotent God to change his mind.

Well, if you believe in free will, it should follow that God will sometimes treat you differently depending on what choices you have made.

If there is such a thing as free will then in what circumstances would God ever intervene?

When God wanted to? I guess I don't understand the deep theological question at hand.

If there is free will then God would never intervene because then he would be interfering with free will.  example, someone prays for good grades and God sends an angel to them to tell them about the questions that will be on the test? God rewards the person who prays rather than allowing the person who spent that time studying to do better than the person who effectively cheated by deciding to pray rather than study?

What will happen when that same person prays to become US president.  Will God interfere with the free will of all the voters who think that person is nutters and install them as president?

The point is that the belief that God answers prayers ignores the impact that answering the prayers has on everyone else.  It is a very individualistic view of the word.

[Duque de Bragança]

Could the byzantine debate about the nature of God and its will go somewhere else, courtesy of the mods and/or the Holy Ghost? It's tiring.

[Barrister]

If there is free will then God would never intervene because then he would be interfering with free will.  example, someone prays for good grades and God sends an angel to them to tell them about the questions that will be on the test? God rewards the person who prays rather than allowing the person who spent that time studying to do better than the person who effectively cheated by deciding to pray rather than study?

What will happen when that same person prays to become US president.  Will God interfere with the free will of all the voters who think that person is nutters and install them as president?

The point is that the belief that God answers prayers ignores the impact that answering the prayers has on everyone else.  It is a very individualistic view of the word.

I believe in prayer.

Now to me God isn't some kind of wish-granting genie so I never pray for something trivial like answers on a test or lottery numbers.  I mostly stick with prayers of thanks, or for the health and safety of others.  I suspect those are the kinds of prayers God is most receptive to answering.

[Malthus]

BTW this is the weakest point in the act of praying. Twist it how you want, it means you think you are able to influence omnipotent God to change his mind.

Well, if you believe in free will, it should follow that God will sometimes treat you differently depending on what choices you have made.

If there is such a thing as free will then in what circumstances would God ever intervene?

When God wanted to? I guess I don't understand the deep theological question at hand.

If there is free will then God would never intervene because then he would be interfering with free will.  example, someone prays for good grades and God sends an angel to them to tell them about the questions that will be on the test? God rewards the person who prays rather than allowing the person who spent that time studying to do better than the person who effectively cheated by deciding to pray rather than study?

What will happen when that same person prays to become US president.  Will God interfere with the free will of all the voters who think that person is nutters and install them as president?

The point is that the belief that God answers prayers ignores the impact that answering the prayers has on everyone else.  It is a very individualistic view of the word.

In Judaism, with the exception of the Kabbalists (some of whom view prayer as a sort of magic), traditionally the purpose of prayer was not to influence God in any way, but to influence the person making the prayer - basically, to have the proper appreciation of the divine.

Most Jewish prayers though take the form of elaborately praising God - as with so much in Judaism, the traditional explanation (derived from the great medieval Jewish rationalists like Maimonides) probably developed as a rationalization of a much more primitive supplication ceremony, together with sacrifices and the like.

[Malthus]

Could the byzantine debate about the nature of God and its will go somewhere else, courtesy of the mods and/or the Holy Ghost? It's tiring.

Put it in the form of a prayer. The mods are at least as capricious and non-acting as any deity. 

[Valmy]

If there is free will then God would never intervene because then he would be interfering with free will.  example, someone prays for good grades and God sends an angel to them to tell them about the questions that will be on the test? God rewards the person who prays rather than allowing the person who spent that time studying to do better than the person who effectively cheated by deciding to pray rather than study?

What will happen when that same person prays to become US president.  Will God interfere with the free will of all the voters who think that person is nutters and install them as president?

The point is that the belief that God answers prayers ignores the impact that answering the prayers has on everyone else.  It is a very individualistic view of the word.

If you believe that God answers prayers and you believe that God is all knowing then you would believe that God takes all these things into consideration. I don't think anybody believes that if you pray God just gives you want you want.

[Valmy]

Could the byzantine debate about the nature of God and its will go somewhere else, courtesy of the mods and/or the Holy Ghost? It's tiring.

I will pray for this thread brother Duque.

[Razgovory]

BTW this is the weakest point in the act of praying. Twist it how you want, it means you think you are able to influence omnipotent God to change his mind.

Well, if you believe in free will, it should follow that God will sometimes treat you differently depending on what choices you have made.

If there is such a thing as free will then in what circumstances would God ever intervene?

Query:  Do you actually want to know, or are trying to make a point?

[crazy canuck]

If there is free will then God would never intervene because then he would be interfering with free will.  example, someone prays for good grades and God sends an angel to them to tell them about the questions that will be on the test? God rewards the person who prays rather than allowing the person who spent that time studying to do better than the person who effectively cheated by deciding to pray rather than study?

What will happen when that same person prays to become US president.  Will God interfere with the free will of all the voters who think that person is nutters and install them as president?

The point is that the belief that God answers prayers ignores the impact that answering the prayers has on everyone else.  It is a very individualistic view of the word.

I believe in prayer.

Now to me God isn't some kind of wish-granting genie so I never pray for something trivial like answers on a test or lottery numbers.  I mostly stick with prayers of thanks, or for the health and safety of others.  I suspect those are the kinds of prayers God is most receptive to answering.

I have no problem with you giving thanks to your God.  That at least seems logical to me if one holds that there is free will. But the moment you start using language like your God "answers" a prayer then that implies some from of intervention in daily affairs that puts the lie to free will.  If you are right then life is a rigged game and all one needs to do is pray.  Its worse then predestination because if one beliefs that prayers are answered then the game rigging varies depending on how much God favours one group over the other.  If you are right God has a hell of a problem on Friday nights in Texas trying to decide which players should get injured and which teams should win.

[crazy canuck]

BTW this is the weakest point in the act of praying. Twist it how you want, it means you think you are able to influence omnipotent God to change his mind.

Well, if you believe in free will, it should follow that God will sometimes treat you differently depending on what choices you have made.

If there is such a thing as free will then in what circumstances would God ever intervene?

Query:  Do you actually want to know, or are trying to make a point?

If you have an answer I would be happy to hear it.  Put another way, if there was an answer that made sense I would be much more likely to become a Christian. 

[Valmy]

I have no problem with you giving thanks to your God.  That at least seems logical to me if one holds that there is free will. But the moment you start using language like your God "answers" a prayer then that implies some from of intervention in daily affairs that puts the lie to free will.  If you are right then life is a rigged game and all one needs to do is pray.  Its worse then predestination because if one beliefs that prayers are answered then the game rigging varies depending on how much God favours one group over the other.  If you are right God has a hell of a problem on Friday nights in Texas trying to decide which players should get injured and which teams should win.

I guess I don't follow. If you believe that prayers are answered than you would also believe that God can easily swing all this being all powerful and all knowing. Also trying to impose logic on religion is ridiculous. It is not a scientific theorem. It is essentially irrational.

[crazy canuck]

I have no problem with you giving thanks to your God.  That at least seems logical to me if one holds that there is free will. But the moment you start using language like your God "answers" a prayer then that implies some from of intervention in daily affairs that puts the lie to free will.  If you are right then life is a rigged game and all one needs to do is pray.  Its worse then predestination because if one beliefs that prayers are answered then the game rigging varies depending on how much God favours one group over the other.  If you are right God has a hell of a problem on Friday nights in Texas trying to decide which players should get injured and which teams should win.

I guess I don't follow. If you believe that prayers are answered than you would also believe that God can easily swing all this being all powerful and all knowing.

And being all powerful and all knowing God could also not be all loving (as the New Testament teaches).

You should check out Erhman's book about just this issue called "God's Problem" iirc.

[Valmy]

If you have an answer I would be happy to hear it.  Put another way, if there was an answer that made sense I would be much more likely to become a Christian. 

Even if there was an answer that made sense it would have nothing to do with why people become Christians. People do not become religious because they are looking for a way to game life and gain some kind of edge by wielding their prayer weapons. Well ok probably some do but that is kind of missing the point.

[Martinus]

Ugh. Where did you hear that garbage from Marty?

Wha?

[Razgovory]

If you have an answer I would be happy to hear it.  Put another way, if there was an answer that made sense I would be much more likely to become a Christian. 

The answer really depends on what sect of Christianity is.  Look for yourself.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theological_determinism