Greek Referendum Poll

[crazy canuck]

Best not feed the Troll.  I am assuming Grumbles is smart enough to know the plan contains points relevant to PJL's comment.

[alfred russel]

100+ years ago, the great powers would have their battleships off the coast of Greece to "protect their interests". The absence of battleships doesn't mean the substance of the situation has really changed. Full "sovereignty" for a nation and financial insolvency are incompatible in the long term.

[Admiral Yi]

100+ years ago, the great powers would have their battleships off the coast of Greece to "protect their interests". The absence of battleships doesn't mean the substance of the situation has really changed. Full "sovereignty" for a nation and financial insolvency are incompatible in the long term.

Greece could exercise its full sovereignty and default at any time.

[PJL]

At this point, Grexit and a possible military coup looks like the better option, rather than the EU political coup. At least the military would be Greek.

[PJL]

And the parralells with the Treaty of Brest Litovsk are uncanny (other than of course it was in the middle of a war). Germany and radical leftists try and make a peace deal which are harsh. Leftists walk away but situation only gets worse. They are then forced to sign a deal which is even more harsh than the previous one.

Though at least Brest Litovsk left the Russians independent. What the Greeks are facing is effectively an unequal treaty between them and the EU.

[grumbler]

Here's the 14 12 point plan.

Wow.  You are correct.  Greece will lose its sovereignty if ELSTAT can't produce partisan political statistics. 

I assume that the points about Greece removing from office those who engaged in propaganda against the ECB and the one about the collaboration in Greece of representatives of the ECB for the suppression of the subversive movement directed against the integrity of the Euro were accidentally cropped by your source, imgur.com?

I thought some other points were more relevant than the ELSTAT one...

For example, saying that a country must conduct an "independent" (thus, not based on political will of the people) privatisation is quite outrageous.

I was playing along with his (obviously not serious) claim that this was worse than AH's ultimatum.  It wasn't intended to be taken seriously.

[Razgovory]

And the parralells with the Treaty of Brest Litovsk are uncanny (other than of course it was in the middle of a war). Germany and radical leftists try and make a peace deal which are harsh. Leftists walk away but situation only gets worse. They are then forced to sign a deal which is even more harsh than the previous one.

Though at least Brest Litovsk left the Russians independent. What the Greeks are facing is effectively an unequal treaty between them and the EU.

Uncanny indeed

[grumbler]

Greece could exercise its full sovereignty and default at any time.

Greece cannot have full sovereignty with no power to issue currency in accordance with its peoples' needs.  Their government clearly needs that power, and should so state.  Grexit today is obviously going to be more painful than Grexit five years ago would have been, but less painful than Grexit in five years will be.

[Zanza]

For example, saying that a country must conduct an "independent" (thus, not based on political will of the people) privatisation is quite outrageous.

The idea is probably based on the East German Treuhandanstalt which had the task to privatize the state-owned enterprises and other assets of the GDR.

[Admiral Yi]

And the parralells with the Treaty of Brest Litovsk are uncanny (other than of course it was in the middle of a war). Germany and radical leftists try and make a peace deal which are harsh. Leftists walk away but situation only gets worse. They are then forced to sign a deal which is even more harsh than the previous one.

Though at least Brest Litovsk left the Russians independent. What the Greeks are facing is effectively an unequal treaty between them and the EU.

What would it take in your opinion to make a fair and equal agreement which doesn't infringe on Greece's sovereignty?

[Crazy_Ivan80]

The idea is probably based on the East German Treuhandanstalt which had the task to privatize the state-owned enterprises and other assets of the GDR.

heh, funny. Yesterday one of it's boardmembers (André Leysen) between 1990-1994 died. Probably the first time the Treuhandanstalt was mentioned on our radio... ever.

[PJL]

And the parralells with the Treaty of Brest Litovsk are uncanny (other than of course it was in the middle of a war). Germany and radical leftists try and make a peace deal which are harsh. Leftists walk away but situation only gets worse. They are then forced to sign a deal which is even more harsh than the previous one.

Though at least Brest Litovsk left the Russians independent. What the Greeks are facing is effectively an unequal treaty between them and the EU.

What would it take in your opinion to make a fair and equal agreement which doesn't infringe on Greece's sovereignty?

There isn't one. Greece should leave the Eurozone. No question about that now. It's either subservience and vassalage in the Eurozone, or independence outside of it.

[Razgovory]

That sort of is the point of the Eurozone, isn't it?  The adoption of the Euro is more about binding the constitute states together rather than enjoying economic benefits.  It might have even worked if they had a real federal government.

[PJL]

That sort of is the point of the Eurozone, isn't it?  The adoption of the Euro is more about binding the constitute states together rather than enjoying economic benefits.  It might have even worked if they had a real federal government.

Well yes, but it should be done by consensus, not by submission.Which is what the current deal is.

[Zanza]

I agree with PJL.

On the one hand Greek sovereignty should not be sold for financial stability.
On the other hand the Eurozone can't trust Greece to implement the policies anyway.
So neither side has anything to gain from another deal.

Too bad our politicians let it come to this point. Was not necessary or inevitable.