Greek Referendum Poll

[Drakken]

You're talking about those four camera pics on the Ed Conway site?

Yep.

EDIT : If you fear it is some conspiratorial bullshit, you can read the final 4pm draft here:

http://blogs.ft.com/brusselsblog/files/2015/07/draft-eurogroup-4pm-Copy.pdf

[alfred russel]

Which measures are the ones that are infringing on Greece's sovereignty?

- Imposition of privatizations of nationalized assets, like the state-owned electricity grid.
-  Either transfer of all valuable assets owned by the Greek governement (of estimated value of 50 billion Euros) to an external fund situated in Luxemburg, or to be privatized and sold with the liquidity being immediately put on the Greek debt
- Oversight by agents sent invited in Athens and answering only to the IMF, the Eurogroup committee, and the ECB
- That the Greek government must consult with these instutitions and get their agreements on all legislative drafts touching relevant areas before being submitted to either Parliament or the public
- All of the demanded measures have to be passed and approved in legislature, as a whole package, in the next 48 hours.

You may read it all in the link I have supplied. It is only 4 pages long, so TL;DR doesn't apply.

Tomorrow I'm going to do a bunch of shit that I don't want to do, in a place I don't want to be, and do what other people I may or may not like tell me to do. In return, I'm going to be given money.

Maybe that is impinging on my freedom, but most people just consider it going to work. If you need other people to give you money, sometimes you have to do what they want.

[Admiral Yi]

Thanks for the link.  It wasn't that I doubted the pics on the other site; I just couldn't read them.

I don't understand the fuss about the privatization.  Privatization was part of the deal from the beginning of the first bailout.

My reading of the "valuable assets" clause is that Greece has a choice of either conducting the sales itself or handing over title of 50 billion euros worth of assets to that Luxembourg office, which will then conduct the sales.  Did you read it differently?

Not sure I really get the impact on sovereignty of the other things you mentioned either.  In a rational world Greece would be the one feeling the time pressure, but they've been dicking around for the last 3 months or so, with nothing to show for it.

[Drakken]

Maybe that is impinging on my freedom, but most people just consider it going to work. If you need other people to give you money, sometimes you have to do what they want.

If you want to play with rhetorical analogies and compare apples and oranges, you don't give out a copy of your keys to your boss to come in and make sure you come to work, or give your passwords to your accountant ensure you do your tax reports. Neither would you accept if they required so.

And, also, the elephant in the room: you are not a State, and you are not in an anarchic international system with rules that are repeatedly ignored, vetoed, or disrespected by the strong because they are strong.

[alfred russel]

Maybe that is impinging on my freedom, but most people just consider it going to work. If you need other people to give you money, sometimes you have to do what they want.

If you want to play with rhetorical analogies and compare apples and oranges, you don't give out a copy of your keys to your boss to come in and make sure you come to work, or give your passwords to your accountant ensure you do your tax reports. Neither would you accept if they required so.

Exactly. I'd find another place to work.

But if no one else would hire me, I'd make due with the situation.

[Monoriu]

If you want to play with rhetorical analogies and compare apples and oranges, you don't give out a copy of your keys to your boss to come in and make sure you come to work, or give your passwords to your accountant ensure you do your tax reports. Neither would you accept if they required so.

You bet I will take that offer if that is the only way to feed myself. 

[Martinus]

It seems the advice received from the Onion does not seem so bad in comparison:

How Greece Can Solve Its Debt Crisis

Currently in negotiations with the European Central Bank, Greece faces an uncertain future as it attempts to prevent financial collapse in the midst of its debt crisis. Here are some potential ways Greece could solve its economic woes:

Try renting out extra space above Thessaloniki to bring in more income
Avoid frivolous spending on things like health care and a national infrastructure
Appoint a special finance minister charged with groveling at Angela Merkel's feet
Increase number of hourly tours of Parthenon
See if populace can think up another new branch of science, form of government, philosophical mode of thought, or basis for Western culture that can be licensed for quick cash
Plunder the Turks
Place tourism ads in Golf Digest and Woman's Day magazines
Finally end Greece's outdated practice of paying Rome a 30 million denarii tribute each year
Patiently remind creditors that money is just a social construct that holds no intrinsic value
10.8 million cups of hemlock

[Monoriu]

There is now a deal among Eurozone members and Tsipras.  Greek parliament will need to pass a list of reforms by Wednesday before formal talks on the third bailout will begin.  Looks like we are heading toward the best case scneario where Greece will stay in the Euro and there will be more austerity.  The question is whether the Greek parliament will pass the deal.  I assume no means Grexit. 

Bottom line is, if they don't want to hand over the keys, don't spend other people's money. 

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Which measures are the ones that are infringing on Greece's sovereignty?

- Imposition of privatizations of nationalized assets, like the state-owned electricity grid.
-  Either transfer of all valuable assets owned by the Greek governement (of estimated value of 50 billion Euros) to an external fund situated in Luxemburg, or to be privatized and sold with the liquidity being immediately put on the Greek debt
- Oversight by agents sent invited in Athens and answering only to the IMF, the Eurogroup committee, and the ECB
- That the Greek government must consult with these instutitions and get their agreements on all legislative drafts touching relevant areas before being submitted to either Parliament or the public
- All of the demanded measures have to be passed and approved in legislature, as a whole package, in the next 48 hours.

You may read it all in the link I have supplied. It is only 4 pages long, so TL;DR doesn't apply.

I'm guessing a lot less people will be calling for the european federal state now. Cause this is what more Europe looks like.

[Syt]

None of this would be an issue, if you guys would just let Germany reorganize the continent in her image.

But nooo, you have to fight wars against this progressive idea! 

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Commentary from a few weeks ago, about the Greek crisis and the call for more integration of Europe. And the folly that this idea is. The english is horrible, blame Google Translate.

http://www.tijd.be/opinie/column/Brusselse_illusies.9649608-2337.art?highlight=het%20paleis%20der%20natie

The Greek crisis has the democratic deficit in the EU and especially in the euro zone uncovered grim. It is questionable whether the monetary union, with all its social fault lines can function with a genuine democratic scrutiny.

   
Who would have thought? The solution to the problems being experienced by the European Monetary Union is even more integration, more Europe. As it says in the report that the President of the European Commission, Jean-Claude Juncker earlier this week explained to the population.

Three years ago, the then European President Herman Van Rompuy on his own to the same conclusion. This time they were five to address the pressing issue. Juncker was his thinking assisted by Mario Draghi of the European Central Bank (ECB), European Minister Donald Tusk, the chairman of the Eurogroup Jeroen Dijsselbloem and the President of the European Parliament Martin Schulz.

That Parliament President Schulz, not exactly a great thinker, brainstormed with is strange. The institution which he chairs, is deemed to control four fellow thinkers and if necessary call them to order. Schulz 'cooperation in the Juncker report suggests that the issue for the European Parliament is only a formality.

The integration advocated by the authors of the report, accompanied by an extensive transfer of sovereignty. There is also talk of the completion of the banking union and a single capital market. The proposed European deposit guarantee is part of that banking union.

According to Juncker and his group believe an independent advisory needs strict watch on the budgets of Member States. The investment fund Juncker earlier suggested the prospect, and it really amounts to little, would serve to cushion economic and financial shocks, but then only for Member States that comply with the neatly Brussels begrotingsoekazes.

If by chance appeared just before Juncker, the result of his thinking released its an open letter to European academics call for - you guessed it - more integration, more Europe. "The Europeans are counting on your leadership, responsibility and vision to get them and the Union out of this crisis," so ends the dramatic appeal.

This is what European propaganda trick transparent. The open letter was written by the Italian Professor Roberto Castaldi, whose international Centre for European and Global Governance by the European Commission, the European Council and the European Parliament is financed.

President Juncker That just now comes out with its report, of course, has to do with the ongoing Greek crisis. Nevertheless, Greece is with all its liabilities and completely collapsed economy just part of a much bigger problem: the gaping democratic deficit which Europe no way know it.

Debt Prison

Greece has borrowed itself bankrupt. The country needs to save himself to death now and taxing to cling to buoy the euro. That is about in the endless negotiations between the Greek government and creditors. If the government of Alexis Tsipras therein tit off and bends to the demands of the International Monetary Fund put on the table, the Greek population is indefinitely debt prison. Mind you, not all Greeks. Because there are Greeks who are scandalously rich despite everything, Juncker said in an interview with Der Spiegel. Thought maybe the President to shipping magnate Spiros Latsis, whose luxury pleasure cruiser his predecessor, Jose Manuel Barroso was already linger. Juncker was certainly disappointed when Tsipras dismissive responded to his proposal to introduce a property tax. Consequently, the average Greek pays the price of the debacle.

That Greek nor requested from the citizens of the other euro countries or they agree with the conclusions of Juncker report. The transfer of sovereignty is foreseen after 2017 prudence after the referendum on a possible brexit in the UK. July 1 is already started the practical implementation of the remaining claims.

That raises questions again at the proposals to formulate the rapporteurs attention to social consequences of all this. On working conditions, the elimination of social dumping, the leveling of systems of social security, minimum wage, there is nothing in the report about Juncker.

The priorities of Juncker and his co-rapporteurs are clearly elsewhere. They realize that, even though a tentative compromise worked out with the Greeks, the problems of the eurozone have not been resolved. The Greeks need to refinance in the coming months paying back billions and loans. In Brussels and in Washington they know that this is impossible and that a part of the Greek debt sooner or later must be remitted. And that the European taxpayer can willy nilly opdraait. This is the price for the reckless rush to the euro and the Greek mismanagement, says Ashoka Mody, an economist at Princeton.

   
The integration plans Juncker will not change anything. Former Commission President Jacques Delors launched the illusion that the single currency would develop a new dynamic and naturally would lead to European integration. That turned into a political farce format. There is not just Greece. Throughout southern Europe continues to face problems. Spain stands by Greece at the top of the list of eurozone countries with the highest unemployment. Italy and France are facing structural difficulties. And debt of the eurozone countries is more than 90 percent of GDP, which is a hefty cut above the targeted 60 percent.

Old European contradictions

Still want Juncker and the other rapporteurs impose integration without any democratic participation. And all that in the illusory hope that the single currency boosts the disadvantaged economies such as former ECB President Jean-Claude Trichet once claimed. Who still added that the single currency would equalize interest rates. The international money market recorded the statement of Trichet for good coin and gradually Greece and other southern European euro countries are treated as though they were dealing with Germany. Today, those creditors stuck with the Greek and other debt mountains. And just at a time when the Federal Reserve and the European Central Bank international bond markets have disrupted their spectacular quantitative easing. Draghi's massive buyout of bonds being only exchange blows bubbles and promotes a wave of cheap funded acquisitions. A revival of the labor market is far from complete.

In a commentary on the website of the think-tank Bruegel, whose chairman Trichet, was recently asked whether it would not be better to scale down the integration. There is something to be said.

The truth is that Europe, and especially the monetary union can not withstand an equalization of social systems. And even less resistant to a real parliament, where majority and opposition face each other and where the treatment of Greece and quickly whisked together reports like that are filleted inexorably Juncker. In such a parliament which is not deafened by conceit and propaganda funds, the old European antagonisms would soon resurface

[Monoriu]

After some 17 hours of summit talks eurozone leaders announced a new deal to rescue Greece - a third bailout.

There are still significant hurdles to clear, however. And after months of argument and delay between the Greek government and the lenders, the eurozone wants the new sense of urgency to be maintained.

The risk of Grexit - a Greek exit from the euro - has not gone away. So what are the key points of the deal?
◾The Greek parliament must immediately adopt laws to reform key parts of its economy - by Wednesday. The reforms include: streamlining the pension system, boosting tax revenue - especially from VAT, liberalising the labour market, privatising the electricity network, extending shop opening hours
◾The eurozone agrees in principle to start negotiations on a loan package for Greece worth €82bn-86bn (£59bn-£62bn; $91bn-$96bn)
◾The loan will come mainly from the European Stability Mechanism (ESM) - the eurozone bailout fund - but the International Monetary Fund will also be asked to make a contribution from March 2016
◾A new trust fund will be set up, managed by Greece, with €50bn of Greek assets. Half will be used to fund the recapitalisation of Greek banks, the other half will go towards reducing Greece's debt mountain - by privatising assets - and investing in Greece
◾Greece will get short-term bridge financing to avoid bankruptcy. The amount is estimated to be €7bn by next Monday and another €5bn by mid-August
◾Out of the total ESM loan about €10bn will be used immediately to recapitalise Greek banks
◾The European Central Bank and eurozone finance ministers will tightly monitor Greek compliance with the bailout conditions
◾Negotiations on the ESM bailout will begin only after the plan is approved by the parliaments of Finland, Germany and Greece
◾The eurozone is ready if necessary to extend the repayment period of Greek debt (by debt rescheduling), but debt will not be written off (so no "haircut")
◾The European Commission will try to mobilise €35bn - outside the ESM loan - to help Greece with growth and job creation.

I find the highlighted bit intriguing.  One of the things that the most powerful heads of governments/states in Europe discussed in an all-night marathon meeting that decided the EU's future was...shop opening hours?  I dunno, are these really that important in economics?

[Syt]

Quite some stretch goals in this Krautfunding campaign.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Quite some stretch goals in this Krautfunding campaign.

Better call Chris Robers.

[Duque de Bragança]

After some 17 hours of summit talks eurozone leaders announced a new deal to rescue Greece - a third bailout.

There are still significant hurdles to clear, however. And after months of argument and delay between the Greek government and the lenders, the eurozone wants the new sense of urgency to be maintained.

The risk of Grexit - a Greek exit from the euro - has not gone away. So what are the key points of the deal?
◾The Greek parliament must immediately adopt laws to reform key parts of its economy - by Wednesday. The reforms include: streamlining the pension system, boosting tax revenue - especially from VAT, liberalising the labour market, privatising the electricity network, extending shop opening hours
◾The eurozone agrees in principle to start negotiations on a loan package for Greece worth €82bn-86bn (£59bn-£62bn; $91bn-$96bn)
◾The loan will come mainly from the European Stability Mechanism (ESM) - the eurozone bailout fund - but the International Monetary Fund will also be asked to make a contribution from March 2016
◾A new trust fund will be set up, managed by Greece, with €50bn of Greek assets. Half will be used to fund the recapitalisation of Greek banks, the other half will go towards reducing Greece's debt mountain - by privatising assets - and investing in Greece
◾Greece will get short-term bridge financing to avoid bankruptcy. The amount is estimated to be €7bn by next Monday and another €5bn by mid-August
◾Out of the total ESM loan about €10bn will be used immediately to recapitalise Greek banks
◾The European Central Bank and eurozone finance ministers will tightly monitor Greek compliance with the bailout conditions
◾Negotiations on the ESM bailout will begin only after the plan is approved by the parliaments of Finland, Germany and Greece
◾The eurozone is ready if necessary to extend the repayment period of Greek debt (by debt rescheduling), but debt will not be written off (so no "haircut")
◾The European Commission will try to mobilise €35bn - outside the ESM loan - to help Greece with growth and job creation.

I find the highlighted bit intriguing.  One of the things that the most powerful heads of governments/states in Europe discussed in an all-night marathon meeting that decided the EU's future was...shop opening hours?  I dunno, are these really that important in economics?

Yes, Sunday in Germany is sacred.