Gay Marriage Upheld by USSC in Close Ruling

[Valmy]

I gotta say, WBC may be the only Christians I actually respect - because, unlike most of the other Bible-based religions, they actually follow what their "word of God".

Nonsense. They ignore everything that does not fit with their agenda.

[Valmy]

Does Marti do anything actively to restrict the rights of religious people?

Does the definition of Homophobe require active participation in politics?

[garbon]

Does Marti do anything actively to restrict the rights of religious people?

Does the definition of Homophobe require active participation in politics?

No and perhaps I should have avoided 'active' measures.  I would say that most homophobes on hears about generally try to take steps to limit what gay people can do. I'm not sure that Marti is advocating limits on what Christians can do...though knowing his big mouth, he has at some point.

[Martinus]

I think for starters there is a difference between being anti-gay and anti-religion - being gay is an innate biological trait, being religious is an acquired worldview/philosophical choice. Being anti-religion or anti-Christian is like being anti-communist or anti-capitalist - it may involve some degree of misrepresentation of the views one is opposed to, but it is nowhere comparable to being, saying, homophobic, racist or antisemitic.

[Valmy]

I think for starters there is a difference between being anti-gay and anti-religion - being gay is an innate biological trait, being religious is an acquired worldview/philosophical choice. Being anti-religion or anti-Christian is like being anti-communist or anti-capitalist - it may involve some degree of misrepresentation of the views one is opposed to, but it is nowhere comparable to being, saying, homophobic, racist or antisemitic.

I don't know...saying that all Christians are actually the WBC and you respect them for being 'honest' is pretty comparable to what racists or antisemites say.

[Malthus]

To my mind, the essence of any sort of bigotry tends to be - unjustified, unfair and derogatory generalizations about a group of people.

How that group is defined may be different, and I suppose a case could be made that bigotry directed at a group defined by characteristics that are innate as opposed to characteristics that are chosen is more serious and so worse. But it is similar in kind.

Sometimes I think too much emphasis is put on hatred of bigotry as a matter or morality. Ultimately, bigotry is, basically, a mistake - a sort of mental malfunction, or willful blindness to facts. For whatever reasons, bigotry tends to be the action of believing that 'all X is like Y', and so worthy of distain or hatred, and an unwillingness to accept evidence to the contrary.

[Martinus]

To my mind, the essence of any sort of bigotry tends to be - unjustified, unfair and derogatory generalizations about a group of people.

How that group is defined may be different, and I suppose a case could be made that bigotry directed at a group defined by characteristics that are innate as opposed to characteristics that are chosen is more serious and so worse. But it is similar in kind.

Sometimes I think too much emphasis is put on hatred of bigotry as a matter or morality. Ultimately, bigotry is, basically, a mistake - a sort of mental malfunction, or willful blindness to facts. For whatever reasons, bigotry tends to be the action of believing that 'all X is like Y', and so worthy of distain or hatred, and an unwillingness to accept evidence to the contrary.

The thing is, generalisations like this can be justified when talking about people sharing a given ideology (as opposed to sharing innate biological characteristics).

For example, saying that all supporters of Hitler are either antisemitic or wilfully blind and ignoring the nazi ideology's antisemitism is not "bigotry" - it is simply the statement of fact.

Likewise, if you are a Christian and believe that Bible is the word of god, then saying you either support the idiocy in the Bible or you are a hypocrite and ignore the idiocy, is not bigoted - it's simply a statement of fact.

[Martinus]

I think for starters there is a difference between being anti-gay and anti-religion - being gay is an innate biological trait, being religious is an acquired worldview/philosophical choice. Being anti-religion or anti-Christian is like being anti-communist or anti-capitalist - it may involve some degree of misrepresentation of the views one is opposed to, but it is nowhere comparable to being, saying, homophobic, racist or antisemitic.

I don't know...saying that all Christians are actually the WBC and you respect them for being 'honest' is pretty comparable to what racists or antisemites say.

Not really - again, the Bible is a verifiable, objectively existing text, which can be read and interpreted. So if you say you think the Bible is the word of God, it is not a "generalisation" or "bigotry" to expect you to agree with everything the Bible says (it would be different if you said that the Bible is simply a historical text, that has some value still today but by large is outdated and inadequate to modern times).

[Martinus]

And for the record, you can be religious and can be a good person - and in fact you can find the Bible useful or agree with the teachings of Christ and be a good person. But if you are a Christian who believes that the Bible (including the Old Testament) is a literal word of God (I suppose there are some sects who do not believe that, but then they are only tennously Christian) but then denounce WBC as fanatics or idiots, then it is not bigotry to point out inconsistency in your beliefs.

For the record, it beats me why people who disagree with a lot of what the Bible says cling so much to the concept of being called a Christian - in this I agree with fundamentalists who call this kind of approach "salad bar Christianity". If people were more bold and brave, and "cut their own way through the jungle" spiritually, rather than clinging to outdated organisations and identities, the world would have been a much better place.

[Valmy]

Not really - again, the Bible is a verifiable, objectively existing text, which can be read and interpreted.

It does not sound like you have done much of either.

So if you say you think the Bible is the word of God, it is not a "generalisation" or "bigotry" to expect you to agree with everything the Bible says (it would be different if you said that the Bible is simply a historical text, that has some value still today but by large is outdated and inadequate to modern times).

It is bigotry to demand a specific interpretation as the truth to fit your bigoted agenda, yes. It is exactly what anti-semites do with the Talmud (all taken out of context of course).

Likewise, if you are a Christian and believe that Bible is the word of god, then saying you either support the idiocy in the Bible or you are a hypocrite and ignore the idiocy, is not bigoted - it's simply a statement of fact.

But the WBC ignores tons of stuff and you have no problem with that, because it supports your bigoted world view.

[Martinus]

Not really - again, the Bible is a verifiable, objectively existing text, which can be read and interpreted.

It does not sound like you have done much of either.

So if you say you think the Bible is the word of God, it is not a "generalisation" or "bigotry" to expect you to agree with everything the Bible says (it would be different if you said that the Bible is simply a historical text, that has some value still today but by large is outdated and inadequate to modern times).

It is bigotry to demand a specific interpretation as the truth to fit your bigoted agenda, yes. It is exactly what anti-semites do with the Talmud (all taken out of context of course).

Likewise, if you are a Christian and believe that Bible is the word of god, then saying you either support the idiocy in the Bible or you are a hypocrite and ignore the idiocy, is not bigoted - it's simply a statement of fact.

But the WBC ignores tons of stuff and you have no problem with that, because it supports your bigoted world view.

Can you give me an example of stuff WBC ignores?

And I have probably done more Bible reading and studying that you or most so-called Christians, for that matter.

[Martinus]

And Valmy, the interpretation that Bible is homophobic/anti-gay is not "mine" or "taken out of context" - the fact that millions of Christians across the globe use that interpretation to persecute and discriminate against gays makes your statement a lie.

So this is not exactly what antisemites have done with Talmud, given that Jews do not seem to openly preach what antisemites accuse them of.

[DGuller]

To my mind, the essence of any sort of bigotry tends to be - unjustified, unfair and derogatory generalizations about a group of people.

How that group is defined may be different, and I suppose a case could be made that bigotry directed at a group defined by characteristics that are innate as opposed to characteristics that are chosen is more serious and so worse. But it is similar in kind.

Sometimes I think too much emphasis is put on hatred of bigotry as a matter or morality. Ultimately, bigotry is, basically, a mistake - a sort of mental malfunction, or willful blindness to facts. For whatever reasons, bigotry tends to be the action of believing that 'all X is like Y', and so worthy of distain or hatred, and an unwillingness to accept evidence to the contrary.

I think this isn't as helpful of a definition as it might appear.  What if your generalization is statistically justified but doesn't apply to every single person?  Are you making a mistake?  Are you being unjustified?  Are you being unfair?  Very debatable, especially considering that you were to be perfectly rational, not making a generalization when a generalization with some statistical validity can be made is on average a bigger mistake than making a generalization that doesn't explain all variance. 

Arguments against bigotry that are centered around it being a mistake tend have an extremely high content of sophistry.  Bigotry may have some utility on an individual level, but it's definitely damaging to society as a whole.  That's precisely why bigotry should be viewed as a matter of morality.

[Valmy]

And I have probably done more Bible reading and studying that you or most so-called Christians, for that matter.

Yeah I bet.

Can you give me an example of stuff WBC ignores?

Well fuck theology boy, you read and study and Bible more than me and all of us hypocritical non-WBC Christians so why don't you tell me?

[Martinus]

And I have probably done more Bible reading and studying that you or most so-called Christians, for that matter.

Yeah I bet.

Can you give me an example of stuff WBC ignores?

Well fuck theology boy, you read and study and Bible more than me and all of us hypocritical non-WBC Christians so why don't you tell me?

Wow you are really acting bizarre here. You made a claim that WBC ignores the Bible - I dont see any proof of that. How am I going to argue a negative?