The Off Topic Topic

[Neil]

Thank you.  That means I'm not way off on my measurements (well, I am, but the other way ).  This means I am justified in ridiculing The Wolverine for its artistic license over a tragedy that gave air war a bad name.

The atomic bombings might have been the least immoral form of city bombing in WWII.

[Ideologue]

Thank you.  That means I'm not way off on my measurements (well, I am, but the other way ).  This means I am justified in ridiculing The Wolverine for its artistic license over a tragedy that gave air war a bad name.

The atomic bombings might have been the least immoral form of city bombing in WWII.

Only Nagasaki, I mean.  Not Hiroshima.

[CountDeMoney]

Only Nagasaki, I mean.  Not Hiroshima.

Oh bullshit.  That 2nd one would've just laid around anyway.

[Ideologue]

Second one should've been used on the Yalu bridges.  THIS FAR AND NO FURTHER.

[Admiral Yi]

From what I've read, and it's not that much so I could be off, Ho Chi Minh was initially hoping to get some measure of American support. Quoting Jefferson would seem consistent with that.

Agreed.  That's what I meant by a PR stunt.

[Ideologue]

Just saw a Navy commercial where they make a special point of having one of the sailors say she'll "uphold the Constitution of the United States."  Er, that's good.

[Phillip V]

Just saw a Navy commercial where they make a special point of having one of the sailors say she'll "uphold the Constitution of the United States."  Er, that's good.

Was she hot.

[citizen k]

Just saw a Navy commercial where they make a special point of having one of the sailors say she'll "uphold the Constitution of the United States."  Er, that's good.

That'll put her on a DHS watchlist.

[Ideologue]

Just saw a Navy commercial where they make a special point of having one of the sailors say she'll "uphold the Constitution of the United States."  Er, that's good.

Was she hot.

Sure.

[Sheilbh]

From what I've read, and it's not that much so I could be off, Ho Chi Minh was initially hoping to get some measure of American support. Quoting Jefferson would seem consistent with that.

Agreed.  That's what I meant by a PR stunt.

Not necessarily. He could've been genuinely inspired by Jefferson and the American war of Independence (I think it was probably inspirational in most national independence movements from 19th century Latin America to modern anti-colonialism). Given America's history and rhetoric on imperialism he may have hoped for support and that combination of genuine inspiration and politics lead to him quoting it.

I mean Kwame Nkrumah, Jomo Kenyatta, Patrice Lumumba and other African independence leaders all quoted Jefferson at one point or other. It's no more incongruous to see the leader of the Gold Coast independence movement quoting Jefferson than the leader of the Viet Minh.

[sbr]

One is a communist and thus the mostest evolest evar.

[Neil]

Thank you.  That means I'm not way off on my measurements (well, I am, but the other way ).  This means I am justified in ridiculing The Wolverine for its artistic license over a tragedy that gave air war a bad name.

The atomic bombings might have been the least immoral form of city bombing in WWII.

Only Nagasaki, I mean.  Not Hiroshima.

They didn't surrender.

[Admiral Yi]

Not necessarily. He could've been genuinely inspired by Jefferson and the American war of Independence (I think it was probably inspirational in most national independence movements from 19th century Latin America to modern anti-colonialism). Given America's history and rhetoric on imperialism he may have hoped for support and that combination of genuine inspiration and politics lead to him quoting it.

I mean Kwame Nkrumah, Jomo Kenyatta, Patrice Lumumba and other African independence leaders all quoted Jefferson at one point or other. It's no more incongruous to see the leader of the Gold Coast independence movement quoting Jefferson than the leader of the Viet Minh.

Well sure, he could have been inspired in the sense of "well golly, if they can win their independence, so can we."  However this factoid is usually advanced to support the narrative that Uncle Ho was at heart a liberal democrat committed to the princples of pluralistic elective democracy, protection of individual rights, and rule of law, but was thwarted in his true wishes by the bad choices of the US.  There is nothing in the history of North Vietnam that suggests this is true.

[Sheilbh]

Well okay, but you've shifted the goalposts a bit here. There are many reasons you can be inspired by Jefferson, especially if you're leading an independence movement. That doesn't mean that you have to be a nice person who will agree with all of Jefferson's liberal views, as is the case with Ho. It doesn't even mean you have to think Jefferson was a nice person, as I imagine was the case with Nkrumah whose office was in a slave trading fortress. Ideas especially when well-expressed have a life of their own. I mean things said by John Locke find themselves among the founders and the Jacobin club.

And I don't think anyone here is pushing the argument that Ho was a liberal democrat and I don't think the line Obama suggests he thinks it either. At most I'd push the argument that perhaps he was one of a number of anti-colonial leaders who felt betrayed by the US because the realities of the Cold War rapidly outpaced the US's anti-imperial rhetoric. I think Ho's probably even more of an example of that because, inspired by Wilson's talk of self-determination, he tried to petition the Versailles conference for Vietnamese independence.

Edit: Interestingly apparently the petition Ho was involved in in 1919 was very much based on Jefferson and the Declaration of Independence. So he may actually have been a committed liberal democrat at that point (he was associated with the French Socialist Party, not the Communists) but ended up going a different way. Maybe he was just hopeful from one Paris conference to the next.

[Ideologue]

Thank you.  That means I'm not way off on my measurements (well, I am, but the other way ).  This means I am justified in ridiculing The Wolverine for its artistic license over a tragedy that gave air war a bad name.

The atomic bombings might have been the least immoral form of city bombing in WWII.

Only Nagasaki, I mean.  Not Hiroshima.

They didn't surrender.

Giving them at least five business days would have been the least we could do.