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Started by Korea, March 10, 2009, 06:24:26 AM

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garbon

Quote from: Ed Anger on April 25, 2011, 08:15:38 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 25, 2011, 08:12:35 PM
Quote from: Lettow77 on April 25, 2011, 08:10:38 PMA worthy sacrifice! I want anime with DASH and ELAN where the protagonist dies in defense of the empire suppressing Chinese revolts in the hinterland.

Great--Big Eyes Small Mouth Bedford Forrest.  That's just fucking super.

Forrest gets tentacled raped. Might be worth a view.

Or a mew.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Lettow77

 When- fall of 1941? Or a more plausible choice for Japan, the late spring of '42.

You don't think it's plausible crucial Siberian reserves could've been held back to deal with Japan?

Soundly beaten in 1939, yes- at that point the IJA should've received more development. Maybe unfreeze tank development out of the year 1935 and stop funding the IJN so much.
It can't be helped...We'll have to use 'that'

katmai

Is there anyway we can send lettow and Tim on a one way trip to mars?
Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son

Tonitrus

Quote from: Neil on April 25, 2011, 08:55:41 PM
Quote from: Lettow77 on April 25, 2011, 08:38:59 PM
  I don't know. Why were the Japanese so intent on uniting Karafuto?
Portions of Siberia had value for timber & food, and it is another destination for Japanese colonists, which they anticipated to be a future problem at the time.

Also, with the Soviets out of the far east, they'd have a harder time providing any assistance to China- assuming they survived Barbarossa.

A world with the Soviets defeated is one with a much better strategic situation for the Japanese. 

The real fly in the ointment, as you pointed out earlier, is that the IJN has nothing to do and won't go for it.
Timber wasn't really what the Japanese needed.  The resources that they needed simply weren't in Mongolia, or Siberia.

When are you talking about this attack?  They were soundly beaten in 1939, and you talk about Barbarossa as if the Japanese would have some effect on it.

The initial defeat of the IJA was a pretty half-assed affair.  If they put half the effort into a campaign against Russia in Spring '42, as they did against SE Asia/Philippines, I think they would have been pretty successful.  But as you said, the resources they were after were at least probably 20-years away from availability in Russia, and their need for them was much more urgent than that.

It's a moot point anyway.  FDR would have gotten the U.S. involved in WW2 by the end of 1942 anyway, and without Pearl Harbor, would be in a much better position against Japan. 

Neil

Quote from: Lettow77 on April 25, 2011, 09:07:43 PM
When- fall of 1941? Or a more plausible choice for Japan, the late spring of '42.

You don't think it's plausible crucial Siberian reserves could've been held back to deal with Japan?

Soundly beaten in 1939, yes- at that point the IJA should've received more development. Maybe unfreeze tank development out of the year 1935 and stop funding the IJN so much.
It's not like a Japanese decision to make dramatic improvements to the army would bear fruit by late 1941, at least in the field of armour.  Development cycles were long for those sorts of big-ticket items, and the Japanese ability to change course was somewhat limited.  The carriers were essentially built, and Yamato and Musashi were half built.  The big, expensive cruisers were built and paid for, and the fact that the cost of the big ships was already sunk made the smaller cruisers and destroyers something of a necessity.

I think that attacking into Siberia in the colder months of fall or winter was never going to happen under and circumstances.  A late April or early May attack might be possible, but by that point Barbarossa has already failed.
I do not hate you, nor do I love you, but you are made out of atoms which I can use for something else.

Pat

Quote from: Lettow77 on April 25, 2011, 06:38:53 PM
Depose the Mongolian puppet government with a Mongolian puppet gov't backed by Japan that seeks to bring all mongols under its borders and has a nationalist sentiment more palpable to Mongols than the red dictatorship they languish under;





Ungern-Sternberg, reincarnation of Genghis Khan... RISEN FROM THE DEAD!

Neil

Quote from: Tonitrus on April 25, 2011, 09:15:40 PM
It's a moot point anyway.  FDR would have gotten the U.S. involved in WW2 by the end of 1942 anyway, and without Pearl Harbor, would be in a much better position against Japan.
Really?  Without the propaganda value of Pearl Harbour, even if the US enters the war without provocation (and that would be no easy feat) surely there would be enormous division in the US.

But in terms of military advantage, was Pearl Harbour really important?  How much military utility would the US have gotten out of those old, slow, obsolete dreadnoughts that were the main victims of the attack?
I do not hate you, nor do I love you, but you are made out of atoms which I can use for something else.

DGuller

Quote from: Neil on April 25, 2011, 10:01:27 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on April 25, 2011, 09:15:40 PM
It's a moot point anyway.  FDR would have gotten the U.S. involved in WW2 by the end of 1942 anyway, and without Pearl Harbor, would be in a much better position against Japan.
Really?  Without the propaganda value of Pearl Harbour, even if the US enters the war without provocation (and that would be no easy feat) surely there would be enormous division in the US.

But in terms of military advantage, was Pearl Harbour really important?  How much military utility would the US have gotten out of those old, slow, obsolete dreadnoughts that were the main victims of the attack?
:huh: Uhm, what?  Is Neil saying something bad about dreadnoughts?  Am I seeing things?

jimmy olsen

It would have better for the Japanese if they had discovered the Manchurian oil fields and tapped them in the early '30s.
It is far better for the truth to tear my flesh to pieces, then for my soul to wander through darkness in eternal damnation.

Jet: So what kind of woman is she? What's Julia like?
Faye: Ordinary. The kind of beautiful, dangerous ordinary that you just can't leave alone.
Jet: I see.
Faye: Like an angel from the underworld. Or a devil from Paradise.
--------------------------------------------
1 Karma Chameleon point

Habbaku

Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 25, 2011, 10:50:09 PM
It would have better for the Japanese if they had discovered the Manchurian oil fields and tapped them in the early '30s.

So, Episode 5?
The medievals were only too right in taking nolo episcopari as the best reason a man could give to others for making him a bishop. Give me a king whose chief interest in life is stamps, railways, or race-horses; and who has the power to sack his Vizier (or whatever you care to call him) if he does not like the cut of his trousers.

Government is an abstract noun meaning the art and process of governing and it should be an offence to write it with a capital G or so as to refer to people.

-J. R. R. Tolkien

Tonitrus

#7600
Quote from: Neil on April 25, 2011, 10:01:27 PM
Really?  Without the propaganda value of Pearl Harbour, even if the US enters the war without provocation (and that would be no easy feat) surely there would be enormous division in the US.

But in terms of military advantage, was Pearl Harbour really important?  How much military utility would the US have gotten out of those old, slow, obsolete dreadnoughts that were the main victims of the attack?

Probably not zero provocation...it's pretty cheap to conjure up a "Lusitania-II" type incident (and could well have happened anyway).  The US was all but in the war(at least from FDR's view), and chomping at the bit by December '41.  And I tend to think idea that America would be paralyzed by division over entering the war is vastly overblown.  Like Patton said...Americans love a fight (well, back then anyway).

The battleship factor is probably not important, but with Japan bogged down in far east Russia, the US in the Philippines probably survive for quite a bit longer (though granted the IJN, with nothing much else to do, would blockade it in short order), likewise the Brits.  The US's biggest hindrance would be ramping up war production to go on the offensive, it'd probably be a slower start without a Pearl-level provocation.  And Germany would still be first. 

jimmy olsen

Quote from: Habbaku on April 25, 2011, 10:52:10 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 25, 2011, 10:50:09 PM
It would have better for the Japanese if they had discovered the Manchurian oil fields and tapped them in the early '30s.

So, Episode 5?
That was two pages ago.

Still, I remain confused why anyone would edit that into an old photo like that.
It is far better for the truth to tear my flesh to pieces, then for my soul to wander through darkness in eternal damnation.

Jet: So what kind of woman is she? What's Julia like?
Faye: Ordinary. The kind of beautiful, dangerous ordinary that you just can't leave alone.
Jet: I see.
Faye: Like an angel from the underworld. Or a devil from Paradise.
--------------------------------------------
1 Karma Chameleon point

Syt

Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 25, 2011, 10:54:41 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 25, 2011, 10:52:10 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 25, 2011, 10:50:09 PM
It would have better for the Japanese if they had discovered the Manchurian oil fields and tapped them in the early '30s.

So, Episode 5?
That was two pages ago.

Still, I remain confused why anyone would edit that into an old photo like that.

:huh:

Empire Strikes Back featured "Episode V" from release on. Only Star Wars had retroactively added "Episode IV - A New Hope" into the rolling credits.

Kindly turn in your nerd card when you leave this thread. Thank you.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein's brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops.
—Stephen Jay Gould

Proud owner of 42 Zoupa Points.

jimmy olsen

Quote from: Syt on April 25, 2011, 10:59:36 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 25, 2011, 10:54:41 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 25, 2011, 10:52:10 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 25, 2011, 10:50:09 PM
It would have better for the Japanese if they had discovered the Manchurian oil fields and tapped them in the early '30s.

So, Episode 5?
That was two pages ago.

Still, I remain confused why anyone would edit that into an old photo like that.

:huh:

Empire Strikes Back featured "Episode V" from release on. Only Star Wars had retroactively added "Episode IV - A New Hope" into the rolling credits.

Kindly turn in your nerd card when you leave this thread. Thank you.
Really? Oh, well, not like I was old enough to see it in theater and remember that.
It is far better for the truth to tear my flesh to pieces, then for my soul to wander through darkness in eternal damnation.

Jet: So what kind of woman is she? What's Julia like?
Faye: Ordinary. The kind of beautiful, dangerous ordinary that you just can't leave alone.
Jet: I see.
Faye: Like an angel from the underworld. Or a devil from Paradise.
--------------------------------------------
1 Karma Chameleon point

Habbaku

Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 25, 2011, 11:02:19 PM
Quote from: Syt on April 25, 2011, 10:59:36 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 25, 2011, 10:54:41 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 25, 2011, 10:52:10 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 25, 2011, 10:50:09 PM
It would have better for the Japanese if they had discovered the Manchurian oil fields and tapped them in the early '30s.

So, Episode 5?
That was two pages ago.

Still, I remain confused why anyone would edit that into an old photo like that.

:huh:

Empire Strikes Back featured "Episode V" from release on. Only Star Wars had retroactively added "Episode IV - A New Hope" into the rolling credits.

Kindly turn in your nerd card when you leave this thread. Thank you.
Really? Oh, well, not like I was old enough to see it in theater and remember that.

Please just die.
The medievals were only too right in taking nolo episcopari as the best reason a man could give to others for making him a bishop. Give me a king whose chief interest in life is stamps, railways, or race-horses; and who has the power to sack his Vizier (or whatever you care to call him) if he does not like the cut of his trousers.

Government is an abstract noun meaning the art and process of governing and it should be an offence to write it with a capital G or so as to refer to people.

-J. R. R. Tolkien