The Off Topic Topic

[Sheilbh]

You've finally discovered insulation?

I always found it odd that most of Europe is so far behind in some home efficiency things. Can't really blame being old since Germany is pretty advanced. Sure a bunch of it got blown up, but so did a lot of Europe.

It's becoming a bit of a populist divide here - policy in the UK and other countries is very against AC for energy efficiency reasons. But it's coming up against changing climate and I find it weird how we treat/consider AC v central heating. So there was a right-ish/YIMBY piece today on need for UK planning policy (which strongly discourages AC) as well as subsidies to change - and then Le Pen comes out with something similar in France.

We've got one but not the other on new builds. There were protests by residents in a new development in Stratford recently where there was a show day and current residents had big signs on the sheets in the windows telling people not to move in because it's too hot. Because with modern building standards it's spectacularly well-insulated but with no AC and, often, windows you can't open either

[HVC]

But even beyond the AC stuff. Just general "modern" things like insulation. I get that it easier with wood framing, but Germany and the Swiss manage with block walls (either sheathing or foam injection in the blocks. I don't think ERVs or HRVs are a thing in most of Europe either. Your houses, even new ones, are so damn drafty . Which is ironic because you use energy performance certification for all your housing, which I don't think is a thing here. I remember there was a push in the uk to insulation ceilings with spray foam but you guys messed it and started rotting your roof trusses


@ garbon it all fun and games until you wake up itchy hah

[Admiral Yi]

You beat me to it Hillary. 

[HVC]

You beat me to it Hillary. 

Construction is in my genes   

[Sheilbh]

I can't comment - I know nothing about buildings. This may astonish you but I'm not a handy man

Having said all that, I've investigated with my flat. It's garden flat (so basement/ground) in an Edwardian terrace. Not particularly attractive or big but I like it for one person. But I think it gets at some of the issues. Britain has the oldest housing stock in Europe - about 40% of our housing was built before 1945 (including my flat). The German equivalent is less than 25%, while 40% of Swiss housing stock was built after 1980. Our new-builds are (too) well-insulated.

From investigating insulation/improving energy efficiency/aspiring to a carbon neutral home, the walls are solid brick so from speaking to people about insulation I would lose up to 2cm on all the interior walls which I think would be enough to have an impact/feel smaller. I've been researching a very lightweight/thin insulation solution but it's quite expensive. I've also got single glazed wooden sash windows. I can't do anything about that because I'm in a conservation area (my terrace isn't particularly attractive, but there are rows of similarly undistinguished terraces in this little pocket of London ) - so I'd need to get planning permission and whatever I got would need to be in keeping with the area. There are double glazed wooden sash windows specifically for conservation areas. But the cost of that is also very high, plus the costs of getting planning permission (which could be denied).

[Bauer]

You do have warm water in all your flats by now I hope   

[crazy canuck]

You do have warm water in all your flats by now I hope   

Only because it is warm outside this time of year

[HVC]

You do have warm water in all your flats by now I hope   

I've got good news and bad news for you. Brit's have hot water, but for some reason their hot water tanks in the attic can get contaminated (I still have no idea how, is it open?) so they need separate hot water taps to avoid drinking bad water I assume (hope?) that's only a thing in older houses but I know mixing taps are still exceedingly rare there.

[The Brain]

The important thing is that hot is hot and cold is cold and never the twain shall meet.

[HVC]

I can't comment - I know nothing about buildings. This may astonish you but I'm not a handy man

Having said all that, I've investigated with my flat. It's garden flat (so basement/ground) in an Edwardian terrace. Not particularly attractive or big but I like it for one person. But I think it gets at some of the issues. Britain has the oldest housing stock in Europe - about 40% of our housing was built before 1945 (including my flat). The German equivalent is less than 25%, while 40% of Swiss housing stock was built after 1980. Our new-builds are (too) well-insulated.

From investigating insulation/improving energy efficiency/aspiring to a carbon neutral home, the walls are solid brick so from speaking to people about insulation I would lose up to 2cm on all the interior walls which I think would be enough to have an impact/feel smaller. I've been researching a very lightweight/thin insulation solution but it's quite expensive. I've also got single glazed wooden sash windows. I can't do anything about that because I'm in a conservation area (my terrace isn't particularly attractive, but there are rows of similarly undistinguished terraces in this little pocket of London ) - so I'd need to get planning permission and whatever I got would need to be in keeping with the area. There are double glazed wooden sash windows specifically for conservation areas. But the cost of that is also very high, plus the costs of getting planning permission (which could be denied).

So 60% of Swiss houses are still before 1980?   so it all comes down to British NIMBY culture?

The two much insulation thing brings me back to HRVs and ERVs. Basically they're air exchangers that bring in outside air but preheat or precool it so that your HVAC is more efficient. Differnce between the two is mainly about humidity control.  If you insulate too much, in your words lol, these systems are necessary. If fact they're part of code in Ontario and required for new builds. Been around for decades but I don't know how common they are in most of Europe (from your comment I assume not common in the UK). See, behind in efficiency

[Sheilbh]

I've got good news and bad news for you. Brit's have hot water, but for some reason their hot water tanks in the attic can get contaminated (I still have no idea how, is it open?) so they need separate hot water taps to avoid drinking bad water :ph34: I assume (hope?) that's only a thing in older houses but I know mixing taps are still exceedingly rare there.

Mixing taps aren't rare They're pretty standard now.

They used to be unusual but if you've had a bathroom or kitchen done in the last 2-30 years then chances are you have one (unless it's for aesthetic reasons).

I remember being told those stories about not drinking from the hot tap when I was young - but we were renovating a 19th century house and the plumbing was very, very old. But I think looking it up it's more that it used to be common to have immersion heaters - I had these in most places I grew up in - for your hot water. But apparently there's basically nothing to it, it was just a sort of superstition - cold water came from the mains so was somehow "flowing" while hot water came from a tank so was "stagnant".

I think it's now more common (certainly everywhere I've lived this century) to have gas combi boiler for hot water. Although I've read that actually immersion heaters are making a comeback particularly as more people get solar panels because you can divert any excess electricity to the immersion heater.

[HVC]

I've got good news and bad news for you. Brit's have hot water, but for some reason their hot water tanks in the attic can get contaminated (I still have no idea how, is it open?) so they need separate hot water taps to avoid drinking bad water :ph34: I assume (hope?) that's only a thing in older houses but I know mixing taps are still exceedingly rare there.

Mixing taps aren't rare They're pretty standard now.

They used to be unusual but if you've had a bathroom or kitchen done in the last 2-30 years then chances are you have one (unless it's for aesthetic reasons).

I take back my comment then 

[Josquius]

I guess Britain having a high percent of home owners plays a key part in our houses being old.
Easy enough to knock down and rebuild a rental property. Less so when it's your only home and we don't really allow for self builds the way Japan does.

[Sheilbh]

So 60% of Swiss houses are still before 1980?   so it all comes down to British NIMBY culture?

Yes. Everything comes back to planning and NIMBYs

The two much insulation thing brings me back to HRVs and ERVs. Basically they're air exchangers that bring in outside air but preheat or precool it so that your HVAC is more efficient. Differnce between the two is mainly about humidity control.  If you insulate too much, in your words lol, these systems are necessary. If fact they're part of code in Ontario and required for new builds. Been around for decades but I don't know how common they are in most of Europe (from your comment I assume not common in the UK). See, behind in efficiency

As I say, I think this is going to become the next culture war issue.

In the UK - and in Europe - HVAC is viewed with quite a lot of hostility by environmental/Green groups. It is explicitly strongly discouraged in the Mayor of London's London Plan (everything is planning ). Just today the French government were putting out statements - in the middle of a heatwave - on alternatives to air conditioning. Broadly speaking in the UK HVAC (or air-to-air heat pumps) are excluded from the UK government's subsidy schemes in part because the intent is to only subsidise necessary carbon cuts (heating) not "optional comfort" (air conditioning), but also because the other heat pumps can replace all the boiler - whereas HVAC would replace heating (with cooling as an option) but you could still have gas-fired boiler for water so it's lower carbon/fossil fuel but not eliminating it.

There was a Guardian story today about "row erupting in France" over this because Le Pen announced a "grand plan for air conditioning" and that "air conditioning saves lives" in particular calling for obligatory air conditioning in public spaces - hospitals, schools, care homes, public transport. There's also been a push on this from Dominic Cummings influenced/Reform adjacent think tanks here.

And they're right - which is the problem. I think the source is that a lot of the left on climate in Europe has basically taken the view that conceding any talk on mitigation to a changing climate is basically the first step to doing nothing/a replacement for any other climate policy. So in France the government attacked Le Pen "as ignorant and 'incompetent' for suggesting air conditioning was a solution to the climate crisis". The Greens attacked her for "an environmental policy limited to 'buying air conditioning units' [...] there had to be progress made on green spaces in cities and proper insulation of buildings." I think this is going to be one of those issues where the liberal left are not allowed to discuss certain things because of the political consequences (giving an inch to climate skeptics who emphasise mitigation), which will cede the ground to the radical and far right. I wouldn't be surprised by the end of this parliament to see Nigel Farage campaigning on making it easier to get HVAC systems.

Personally I'd argue that we should be able to take action on climate and mitigate, that extreme heat is as dangerous as the cold especially as we improve insulation standards but no-one would consider central heating "optional comfort" and that if we continue to increase renewables generation it shouldn't matter because it's powered by electricity (which we need to generate a lot more of through low carbon means). So it shouldn't be "the" climate policy but I think it has to be part of it as climate changes and Europe experiences more extreme heat.

[Sheilbh]

I guess Britain having a high percent of home owners plays a key part in our houses being old.
Easy enough to knock down and rebuild a rental property. Less so when it's your only home and we don't really allow for self builds the way Japan does.

I think on the self-build - as with modular homes in Germany and Japan - a big part of the problem is planning. I've mentioned it before but modular home manufcaturers have tried to set up in the UK and basically said that it is not economical for them because their business model depends on a regular, steady, predictable stream of orders - which is not how it works in the UK with the planning process.