The Off Topic Topic

[Malthus]

Yeah - dogs are a small wonder. My parents' dog is on his way out - my mum jokes that she has to check he's still breathing every morning - but they brought in a new puppy a couple of years ago who's got a long time to go. I genuinely think the puppy's energy has actually helped our old dog survive for longer.

It is interesting how different cats are from dogs.

With dogs, it is apparently not recommended to adopt two puppies from the same litter - there is this thing known as "littermate syndrome" that makes such puppies harder to socialize.

With cats, it is recommended to get two from the same litter - this actually makes each cat easier to socialize.

With dogs, it can be a good idea to adopt a puppy with an older dog. With cats, this is much more difficult.

We have a new cat and an old cat, they're 12-14 years apart in age.

While they tolerate each other and don't have any issues, they don't really interact with each other either.

Our kitten litter mates are adorable together - they are constantly playing, play-fighting, and cuddled up together. Highly recommended to get two from the same litter, if they are bonded.

Some pics:

https://i.imgur.com/7OMXkWO.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/q9Tem7E.jpg

When really small:

https://i.imgur.com/8ArpuBW.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ZqGiGC2.jpg

[Grey Fox]

I don't have animals, I'm allergic to everything.

I hate you all.

[HVC]

I don't have animals, I'm allergic to everything.

I hate you all.

They have shots for that. get a dog. your kids will love you.

[crazy canuck]

I don't have animals,

You can fix that

I'm allergic to everything.

You can fix that

I hate you all.

Perfectly understandable

[The Larch]

In yet another case of Spain being a much more liberal country than acknowledged, euthanasia is now legal here (4th country in the EU to do so, I believe that 7th in the world).

Spain approves euthanasia law

Madrid (CNN)Spain approved a law permitting euthanasia on Thursday by a 202 to 141 vote in parliament, making it the fourth European Union country to do so.

"Today, a majority of parliament has borne witness to people who are ill who have been clamoring for years for this right," Socialist Party MP Maria Luisa Carcedo said during the final debate.

She cited the case of Ramon Sampedro, a paralyzed Spaniard who recorded his assisted suicide in 1998, a story later told in the Oscar-winning 2004 movie, "The Sea Inside."

Spain's euthanasia law permits people who have "serious, chronic illness with no chance of recovery and with unbearable suffering" to request assistance from a doctor to end their life, according to the bill posted on parliament's website.

The law, due to take effect in three months, would stop the current potential jail terms for people who help another to end their life. Doctors will not be required to participate in ending a person's life.

Belgium, Luxembourg and the Netherlands already allow euthanasia under certain conditions, Reuters reported. A Portuguese court this week struck down as unconstitutional a euthanasia law there, the Portuguese president's office said.

The governing Socialist Party promoted the law and got support from smaller leftist and other parties. The two main conservative parties opposed it.

Thursday's vote was the final step in becoming law.

[Tamas]

I approve. Our ability to delay death has improved so much, our societal norms must adapt to it.

[Zanza]

Good and necessary progress.

Also the four day workweek thing is interesting. 

[Sheilbh]

I don't support euthanasia - maybe in theory but the example of the Netherlands and Belgium give me real concerns that it is fairly quickly applied a little too widely. And I think it needs to be handled extremely carefully so as not to put pressure on the elderly or the severely disabled - again the picture from Belgium especially is, I understand, mixed on this.

For what it's worth I always think of Spain as a very progressive country

[Maladict]

I don't support euthanasia - maybe in theory but the example of the Netherlands and Belgium give me real concerns that it is fairly quickly applied a little too widely. And I think it needs to be handled extremely carefully so as not to put pressure on the elderly or the severely disabled - again the picture from Belgium especially is, I understand, mixed on this.

The picture from Belgium is always mixed 

I hope we're getting some more progress here, a minority of Christian parties have held debate on this issue hostage for too long now.

[Tamas]

I don't support euthanasia - maybe in theory but the example of the Netherlands and Belgium give me real concerns that it is fairly quickly applied a little too widely. And I think it needs to be handled extremely carefully so as not to put pressure on the elderly or the severely disabled - again the picture from Belgium especially is, I understand, mixed on this.

For what it's worth I always think of Spain as a very progressive country

It is not without risks or concerns but neither is preventing people from taking the dignified way out. There should be controls in place to ensure nobody is pressured into it, but it is incredibly cruel and cowardly from society to force people into extended agony, both physical and mental, just so we don't have to face the challenge of making this work.

[DGuller]

How does euthanasia work in Belgium?  Is the person being euthanized allowed to opt out of euthanasia, if they can prove they're not terminally ill?

[Sheilbh]

It is not without risks or concerns but neither is preventing people from taking the dignified way out. There should be controls in place to ensure nobody is pressured into it, but it is incredibly cruel and cowardly from society to force people into extended agony, both physical and mental, just so we don't have to face the challenge of making this work.

I get some of that in theory - but given the do not resuscitate scandal in this country I would not trust us with euthanasia:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/12/inquiry-begins-into-blanket-use-in-england-of-covid-do-not-resuscitate-orders

[celedhring]

The way our law works is, in a nutshell:

- It can be petitioned by patients "experiencing intolerable suffering" (this not only covers physical pain, but also extreme disability).
- The patient must be conscious, and he/she has to make a formal petition (there's also provisions for living wills).
- Then a process of counseling with the patient's doctor begins, where all possible therapies are explored. The doctor has to certify that the patient is fully aware and cognizant, and acting freely.
- If the doctor agrees, then the patient must confirm his/her willingness to be euthanized.
- Then a second medical assessment begins, this time the doctor must consult with a colleague not previously involved with the case.
- If that doctor agress, the case is moved to a specialized medical commission, which appoints two further experts to make a final ruling. If the ruling is not unanimous, the medical commission has to break the tie.
- If the ruling is favorable, the patient has to confirm a third time that he/she wants to go through with it.

It seems a pretty careful process to me. Of course, we'll see how it works in practice. My only "but" is that I believe you might want to have experts in this kind of issue involved sooner, instead of leaving all of the first assessments solely to the patient's doctor.

[Maladict]

How does euthanasia work in Belgium?  Is the person being euthanized allowed to opt out of euthanasia, if they can prove they're not terminally ill?

Uhm, nobody is euthanized against their will. The patient has to actively request it.

[Barrister]

The way our law works is, in a nutshell:

- It can be petitioned by patients "experiencing intolerable suffering" (this not only covers physical pain, but also extreme disability).
- The patient must be conscious, and he/she has to make a formal petition (there's also provisions for living wills).
- Then a process of counseling with the patient's doctor begins, where all possible therapies are explored. The doctor has to certify that the patient is fully aware and cognizant, and acting freely.
- If the doctor agrees, then the patient must confirm his/her willingness to be euthanized.
- Then a second medical assessment begins, this time the doctor must consult with a colleague not previously involved with the case.
- If that doctor agress, the case is moved to a specialized medical commission, which appoints two further experts to make a final ruling. If the ruling is not unanimous, the medical commission has to break the tie.
- If the ruling is favorable, the patient has to confirm a third time that he/she wants to go through with it.

It seems a pretty careful process to me. Of course, we'll see how it works in practice. My only "but" is that I believe you might want to have experts in this kind of issue involved sooner, instead of leaving all of the first assessments solely to the patient's doctor.

The risk is that once euthanasia becomes normalized you start cutting corners on stuff like this, people start feeling pressured to accept being euthanized.  "Sorry to say that your diagnosis is terminal.  Now can we schedule you for an appointment with the euthanasia committee next week?"

Also really troubling issues on whether mental health issues like depression count as "intolerable suffering".