The Off Topic Topic

[Sheilbh]

It is hard to set up an ethnic based nation state built almost entirely on hatred of your neighbors and not have it be that way...

Ethnic nationalism - yes. Civic nationalism - no.

As I said elsewhere the Taoiseach who is definitely an Irish nationalist is gay and of Indian descent (and I don't know a single Irish person who doesn't identify as nationalist politically). Similarly one of the main candidates to be next leader of the SNP is a Scot of Pakistani descent. Although both him and Nicola Sturgeon have said that if they were refounding it they would give the SNP a different name.

[Valmy]

It is hard to set up an ethnic based nation state built almost entirely on hatred of your neighbors and not have it be that way...

Ethnic nationalism - yes. Civic nationalism - no.

As I said elsewhere the Taoiseach who is definitely an Irish nationalist is gay and of Indian descent (and I don't know a single Irish person who doesn't identify as nationalist politically). Similarly one of the main candidates to be next leader of the SNP is a Scot of Pakistani descent. Although both him and Nicola Sturgeon have said that if they were refounding it they would give the SNP a different name.

Not everything has to be about Britain and Ireland, Sheilbh

[Sheilbh]

In my defence I've always kind of liked Companys too And I think he'd probably be counted a civic nationalist?

[celedhring]

In my defence I've always kind of liked Companys too And I think he'd probably be counted a civic nationalist?

Meh, I'd call Companys regionalist at best. Separatists have turned him into a separatist martyr despite always being the one restraining the separatist elements in ERC at the time.

Anyway, his legacy is deeply flawed.

[Sheilbh]

It is. And I think he's a kind of tragic figure. But, you know, given he was a leader in the 1930s deeply flawed and tragic is about as good you're going to get.

[garbon]

And Morales has fled Bolivia.

[celedhring]

The leader of the Spanish liberals has quit after yesterday's results. He had led the party since its foundation 13 years ago, hopefully they turn more towards the center AND they elect Inés as the new party leader 

(I'll take at least one of the two)

[celedhring]

And Morales has fled Bolivia.

Yeah, that really escalated quickly. Hopefully the situation in the country doesn't degenerate.

[Eddie Teach]

It is. And I think he's a kind of tragic figure. But, you know, given he was a leader in the 1930s deeply flawed and tragic is about as good you're going to get.

Ahem, what about FDR?

[The Larch]

I don't really see how separatists are fascists, have staged a coup d'etat or suppress opposition opinion if any of those terms are to actually mean anything.

It's the current lexicon of the Spanish right, mostly. You'll understand that with that kind of attitudes around it's not really easy to find common ground.

Yeah.

As I say I find it really fascinating that this issue was the trigger in Spain not immigration (though that is part of Vox's politics from what I understand). I always remember having a drink with you and Gups in the run up to the Scottish IndyRef and you asking if we thought the UK government would respect it. Gups may have known why you were asking, given that his wife is Spanish, but I thought it was kind of a crazy question because of course they would

Now that's quite the memory!  I don't even remember the details of the conversation, when was that exactly?

Btw, I still have the Tito mug that was meant for you. 

It is a really striking difference with the UK - especially since Brexit - which is very much a union of states. See today's polling on Northern Ireland, or the view of Tory members on what they're willing to sacrifice to deliver Brexit:



So looking at how important Spanish unity is outside of those areas is really interesting.

I get the feeling that it is the UK the odd one out. Don't know of many countries that would just shrug off some part of it declaring independence.

[Josquius]

The first one is fine.
Scottish and Northern Irish self determination should be a thing and its up to those who live there. Northern Ireland joining the Republic I don't care about either way, assuming its decoupled from brexit.
Scottish independence...I'd rather it not happen but its not my choice.
Bizzare though that the lib dems would be the most upset and the Tories, for whom unionism is in their name, would be quite middling

The second one... Well...Radical brexiters are sociopaths. Film at 11.

[Sheilbh]

Now that's quite the memory!  I don't even remember the details of the conversation, when was that exactly?

I'd guess 2014 as it was before the Scottish election. It's all I remember really but we were in a pub (outside) in London Bridge.

Btw, I still have the Tito mug that was meant for you. 

Hero of the anti-nationalist left for Valmy too

I get the feeling that it is the UK the odd one out. Don't know of many countries that would just shrug off some part of it declaring independence.

Agree-ish. A lot of this is the weirdness of Brexit (ie Lib Dems care about Northern Ireland because it's a proxy for Brexit), and also the rest of the UK really never has cared an enormous amount about Northern Ireland, which is sort-of the tragedy for the unionists. Similarly the low level of support for Irish nationalism, especially in the Labour Party which I think is fairly rare elsewhere.

I think the stats would be different for Scotland. Also England (wrongly) has the Catalan attitude about subsidising other nations.

But I think Spain and the UK are the extremes on this. I'm not aware of any other country prosecuting people for the (to English ears, 17th century sounding) crime of sedition.

[The Larch]

Now that's quite the memory!  I don't even remember the details of the conversation, when was that exactly?

I'd guess 2014 as it was before the Scottish election. It's all I remember really but we were in a pub (outside) in London Bridge.

Yeah, I remember the open air pub near London Bridge, but could not remember the year. It was Gups, Arkie, you and me, right? Wasn't Tamas also supposed to come, but couldn't finally make it?

Btw, I still have the Tito mug that was meant for you. 

Hero of the anti-nationalist left for Valmy too

If you still want it, just say so. 

I get the feeling that it is the UK the odd one out. Don't know of many countries that would just shrug off some part of it declaring independence.

Agree-ish. A lot of this is the weirdness of Brexit (ie Lib Dems care about Northern Ireland because it's a proxy for Brexit), and also the rest of the UK really never has cared an enormous amount about Northern Ireland, which is sort-of the tragedy for the unionists. Similarly the low level of support for Irish nationalism, especially in the Labour Party which I think is fairly rare elsewhere.

I think the stats would be different for Scotland. Also England (wrongly) has the Catalan attitude about subsidising other nations.

But I think Spain and the UK are the extremes on this. I'm not aware of any other country prosecuting people for the (to English ears, 17th century sounding) crime of sedition.

Maybe the UK and Spain are extremes on this, yeah, but I don't think that other countries such as France or Italy would act in a different way when push comes to shove. Re. sedition, Spanish legalese does indeed sound extremely old fashioned sometimes, and it has been argued after all the Catalan shenanigans that a terminology update is badly needed in some areas. See, for instance, the clashes that have taken place with the Germans and Belgians about what each term meant exactly.

[celedhring]

Sedition in our books means physically preventing the carriage of justice in a way that involves public disorder. It's a bad word for what essentially is obstruction of justice on 'roids.

[Sheilbh]

That would help explain why, so far I think, Denmark, Germany and Belgium have not been able to find an equivalent crime (which I think you need for a European arrest warrant).