The Off Topic Topic

[Razgovory]

No. It should be rededicated to the abolition of slavery.

Juneteenth would make a good federal holiday.  I like the idea of switching it with President's day.

[Oexmelin]

Or is your idea that since President's day is evolved partially from Lincoln's Birthday that we can just rededicate it to Abolition?

Yes. And it needs to be a much, MUCH bigger deal than it is - for it essentially marks a huge turning point in realizing the unfulfilled ideals of the American Revolution. I understand how historically it hasn't been, to preserve the sensibilities  of racists and traitors, but it is really time to give it its true importance.

[Valmy]

Or is your idea that since President's day is evolved partially from Lincoln's Birthday that we can just rededicate it to Abolition?

Yes. And it needs to be a much, MUCH bigger deal than it is - for it essentially marks a huge turning point in realizing the unfulfilled ideals of the American Revolution. I understand how historically it hasn't been, to preserve the sensibilities  of racists and traitors, but it is really time to give it its true importance.

I agree. There is a pretty awesome movie about it at least.

[Oexmelin]

The CERN has released an emulator of the early internet, in honor of 30 years of hyperlinks:

https://worldwideweb.cern.ch/browser/#https://worldwideweb.cern.ch/browser/default.html

[Josquius]

Big news story of the moment in Britain is this girl who ran away to join Daesh asking to come home.
Today's news is the government have decided since she is legally Bangladeshi too they have stripped her of citizenship.

Which does raise an interesting presedent. Could we see countries racing to be first to strip dodgy citizens of their papers, since you can only do this if they are not being made stateless?
Wonder if we could see legal cases between countries insisting someone is not theirs - possible in this case to be fair, haven't seen a Bangladesh response yet

[dps]

The correct response to people like this is to bring 'em back and then throw 'em in prison for life IMO.

[Monoriu]

Yeah.  I have zero sympathy for people who run away and join ISIS, but I am not certain that stripping citizenship is the right response. 

[Syt]

I hear people here like maps ....

[Tamas]

Yeah it might be a bit dodgy but I think it could be important to set an example with her.

She seems totally devoid of any regrets over her actions and still quite clearly has her loyalty with the Isis folks. But now there's nowhere left to go, she figures it was fun lets go home where there's safey and comfort.

I think she renounced her citizenship first by going there. Now with this interview she has confirmed that indeed she did so on her own accord. So, in a way, she has been just obliged and the formality done.

[Liep]

I hear people here like maps ....

So if your family keeps birds you're more likely to not leave the nest?

[The Larch]

The girl's situation is murkier than that, I believe. I don't think it's been confirmed if she has Bangladeshi citizenship, only that the British government claims that, because she's of Bangladeshi heritage she can get citizenship there, so they're not making her stateless, which I believe is forbidden by international law, so they're grasping at a potentiality rather than a reality.

In any case she apparently has zero personal connection to Bangladesh, as she was born in the UK and has never been to Bangladesh. Then there's the fact that she had a baby while she still had British citizenship, so I don't know if the baby would be British in that case and she could get to stay with him in the UK even if she's not a British citizen. On top of that is the fact that she went to Syria when she was 15, a minor, so it could be debatable to which degree she'd responsible for her actions in that situation.

In any case, my gut feeling in this case is that the British government decision has acted in a really shitty way. Proper thing, IMO, would be to repatriate her, put her on trial for whatever charge applies (aiding and abetting the enemy, treason, whatever), with the caveat that she was a minor at the time and make sure that the kid is properly taken care of by family or social services. Stripping her citizenship and washing its hands is like dereliction of duty, you just can't get rid of a troublesome citizenship by resorting to this kind of stuff. If she's your citizen and is liable to anything, take care of the situation yourself, don't dump it on others or create a legal mess that will entangle you for a while. If UK law allows for the removal of citizenship, my opinion is that it should be decided by a judge, not by a government minister, and after proper legal procedures, not by decree. Can somebody clarify who in the UK has the legal power to award or rescind citizenship?

TBF, I haven't read any of her interviews or read her opinions, so I have no idea to which degree her lack of remorse would affect all this or what's her degree of loyalty to ISIS, but in any case I think that's a bit besides the point.

[Tamas]

Fair enough.

What should have been done years ago is to declare that anyone who joins ISIS willingly will lose their citizenship. Then anyone going there after said declaration should be stripped.

I would not  be surprised if the decision was also motivated by the desperate governmental need to score a populat point and distract discussion from the total lack of Brexit news.

Still, even though I agree with Larch in terms of principle, I am having real trouble working up an ounce of sympathy for this girl.

In the little bits of the interview I have read/listened to, she spoke of her former British female companions (they decided to stay in the last Isis town despite the siege) with big respect, clearly considering them morally superior for sticking around 'til the end.

She didn't mind seeing heads in bins and such because those were "enemies of Islam", but she doesn't like the death of innocents. Like the terror attack in Manchester. Oh wait not she said its a tit-for-tat because Westerners also bombed towns under ISIS control so its all equal. So she regrets it but not really.

[The Larch]

Still, even though I agree with Larch in terms of principle, I am having real trouble working up an ounce of sympathy for this girl.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think she's super deserving of sympathy or compassion, only that this should not be the way to take. She's done reprehensible things, and she should be put on trial for that, like a modern Tokyo Rose or Lord Haw-Haw, in the sense that she was a propaganda tool for your country's enemies. But there's a but in there too, that should not be forgotten, and it's the fact that she was a minor when she joined ISIS, not a fully responsible adult. Legally slamming a brainwashed teenager doesn't feel right to me.

[Tamas]

Still, even though I agree with Larch in terms of principle, I am having real trouble working up an ounce of sympathy for this girl.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think she's super deserving of sympathy or compassion, only that this should not be the way to take. She's done reprehensible things, and she should be put on trial for that, like a modern Tokyo Rose or Lord Haw-Haw, in the sense that she was a propaganda tool for your country's enemies. But there's a but in there too, that should not be forgotten, and it's the fact that she was a minor when she joined ISIS, not a fully responsible adult. Legally slamming a brainwashed teenager doesn't feel right to me.

Yeah, I know.

[Tamas]

She did seem to think she can just come back and be a welfare mother:

The ITV News security editor, Rohit Kachroo, showed her a copy of the letter at the Syria refugee camp where she is being held.

She said of the letter: "It's kind of heart-breaking to read. My family made it sound like it would be a lot easier for me to come back to the UK when I was speaking to them in Baghouz. It's kind of hard to swallow.

"I heard that other people are being sent back to Britain so I don't know why my case is any different to other people, or is it just because I was on the news four years ago?" she said.

"Another option I might try with my family is my husband is from Holland and he has family in Holland. Maybe I can ask for citizenship in Holland. If he gets sent back to prison in Holland I can just wait for him while he is in prison.