The Off Topic Topic

[Jacob]

Interesting article on hijab from a muslim perspective: https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/muslim-men-hijab-forcing-women-islam-teaching-mohammed-quran-modesty-a7655191.html

TLDR - the author is making a religious argument that the obligation for hijab means that muslim men should refrain from ogling women and thinking impure thoughts, while there is no obligation or right for muslim men to impose "modest dress" on muslim women, much less on non-muslim women.

[derspiess]

That's the official line, yes.

[Jacob]

That's the official line, yes.

What do you mean?

[The Minsky Moment]

It's a bit misleading.  The Quranic verses do enjoin men first but then they also enjoin women.  One of the suras refers to a head scarf and covering the neck or bosom (i.e. cleavage).  It does appear to specifically permit the face to be uncovered though.  Face covering probably came from adaptation of Persian customs post-conquest.  Covering of heads or hair OTOH was a pretty ubiquitous custom throughout the ancient and medieval world and quite common in the modern era in both Islamic and non-Islamic settings.

[Valmy]

That's the official line, yes.

What do you mean?

Yeah I don't get that either. The official line seemed pretty clear that modest dress and a head covering of some sort was an obligation to women. This seems to be departing from that.

Granted I am not some Islamic expert.

[celedhring]

Sampled a bit of the Byzantium podcast. The guy is a bit too stiff, but I guess it's natural given he's just starting. Just checked and he's 130+ eps in and hasn't even got to Manzikert, so I'm sold.

[Valmy]

Sampled a bit of the Byzantium podcast. The guy is a bit too stiff, but I guess it's natural given he's just starting. Just checked and he's 130+ eps in and hasn't even got to Manzikert, so I'm sold.

Yeah he starts off trying to imitate Mike's style and it just does not work. He gets really good as it goes on.

He is not even 100 years until Manzikert yet

[CountDeMoney]

That's the official line, yes.

What do you mean?

Yeah I don't get that either. The official line seemed pretty clear that modest dress and a head covering of some sort was an obligation to women. This seems to be departing from that.

Granted I am not some Islamic expert.

No, moose lamb teachings are chock full of heady women-make-us-think-impure-thoughts references ; it's not about women showing deference to Admiral Ackbar.

Didn't anybody here take any courses on Islam in college?

[Admiral Yi]

:raises hand:

[HVC]

I took some religious classes in high school. Apparently everyone but Catholics are wrong; who knew?

[garbon]

I read most of the Koran.

[Valmy]

I took some religious classes in high school. Apparently everyone but Catholics are wrong; who knew?

Jesus?

[Richard Hakluyt]

It's a bit misleading.  The Quranic verses do enjoin men first but then they also enjoin women.  One of the suras refers to a head scarf and covering the neck or bosom (i.e. cleavage).  It does appear to specifically permit the face to be uncovered though.  Face covering probably came from adaptation of Persian customs post-conquest.  Covering of heads or hair OTOH was a pretty ubiquitous custom throughout the ancient and medieval world and quite common in the modern era in both Islamic and non-Islamic settings.

Yes. When I was a boy the elderly English women always covered their hair when out and about. Headscarves for day-to-day grocery purchasing, more decorative stuff for evenings out and (for the church-goers) some fantastic confections for Sundays. It is the covering of the face that is so weird and disturbing.

[Barrister]

It's a bit misleading.  The Quranic verses do enjoin men first but then they also enjoin women.  One of the suras refers to a head scarf and covering the neck or bosom (i.e. cleavage).  It does appear to specifically permit the face to be uncovered though.  Face covering probably came from adaptation of Persian customs post-conquest.  Covering of heads or hair OTOH was a pretty ubiquitous custom throughout the ancient and medieval world and quite common in the modern era in both Islamic and non-Islamic settings.

Yes. When I was a boy the elderly English women always covered their hair when out and about. Headscarves for day-to-day grocery purchasing, more decorative stuff for evenings out and (for the church-goers) some fantastic confections for Sundays. It is the covering of the face that is so weird and disturbing.

AS a kid the stereotype of old Ukrainian babushkas was that they'd be wearing head scarfs - even to the point the head scarf itself could be called a babushka.

The knots we twist ourselves into over muslim headcoverings is so bizarre given they used to be widespread in the west.

[Admiral Yi]

The knots we twist ourselves into over muslim headcoverings is so bizarre given they used to be widespread in the west.

We don't tie ourselves into knots over head coverings per se.  We do over coercion and a law who's basis is uncontrollable male lust targeting women.