The Off Topic Topic

[Jacob]

To be fair, the hard left has also put plenty of effort into this.  Unfortunately, it's been the elements that rhyme with the hard right (Horseshoe Theory and all), so it's probably done more to contribute than counteract.

Who and what are you thinking about when you say the hard left has put effort into this?

[crazy canuck]

DEVO, the reluctant prophets of doom

Devo envisioned American culture evolving in the wrong directions, or devolving: dumbing down, losing individuality, succumbing to corporate imperatives and treating people as machines while anesthetizing itself with consumption. Those trends, to put it mildly, have not reversed.

"We were noticing an exponential increase in a certain kind of dysfunction going on. And we labeled it," said Casale, who is 75. He was also in Los Angeles, sitting in front of a favorite interview backdrop: a sliced-up world map with the word "DE-EVOLUTION" emblazoned across it. "But it was mostly, you know, a smartass college guy being clever. I didn't really think that we'd go where we went, because de-evolution is real. And this is beyond my worst dystopian nightmare."

Gifted link for people here who remember them

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/12/arts/music/devo-mothersbaugh-casale.html?unlocked_article_code=vDmO--BKPdGVvY32WFkPswJMKq7Nlabrdw4p5gZ2PrZyQNIWkaAaD2I1mUqZs6mrEr5BsTO_fJtpg49ZNknYFFFAFKOJWxXjIDIZXrRhaUeizmii-4xvAkExpz9QbKGIIdzpT9-_SMRdPTsLp2zT_w0-Htj-dXKBVF5FNEmoQUbtYyvCZiK1pU-A4i5Qsdz7FwKmkyyyA4RljkO2lU6CDvzgLZDRWS7VZzUOdpOFnyLuDBJWJNPMm5gAzmMersrQhKky0gVeo7ANEBYhPHG8TAFQXUbcOBA6xrmXvMGtDCycf6Jz7p_Hj9jsb_ozfb4KUs6gQOyS77EEcMUKcTGnWHyJrF1M&smid=url-share

[Baron von Schtinkenbutt]

Who and what are you thinking about when you say the hard left has put effort into this?

Thinking about it, all the examples I was going to use are US or UK groups, but I think you were talking specifically about continental Europe when you said none had put an effort into it.  I don't have any examples for that, so I'd have to agree with you there.

[crazy canuck]

What were you thinking about in terms of the UK and US?

[Baron von Schtinkenbutt]

For the US, I'm thinking of groups like the Democratic Socialists of America, the Working Families Party (though that's regional to the NE US), and various smaller groups that have emerged during the recent social justice wave.  For the UK I don't recall any particular groups, but I've seen lots of activism and outreach for socialist causes, either in connection with American issues or for overarching international causes (e.g., climate change, income inequality).

That said, I live in the Northeast and have worked in the Big Tech or startup worlds for the past five years, so my view may well be skewed towards noticing these types of activities.  If that's the case I'm probably overestimating just how much outreach is being done.  Note though that I'm not claiming the outreach as been effective, just that they're trying.

[Sheilbh]

Re: the young vote trending fascist - the real answer is probably going to be multifaceted, but I expect that the fact that the age of internet has seen an unrelenting stream of propaganda and influence operations in favour of the radical right and fascists with little to no equivalent on behalf of anything to the left of those positions.

I think there's definitely a technological angle with especially the gender divide in young voters.

But in France, Italy and, I believe, Germany it's not quite young votes trending fascist as Zanza flagged on Germany. It is more working age voters voting for the radical right. While the strongest support for the traditional establishment parties of right and left are generally 50+/60+. I think it's interesting because the narrative in the UK and I think US is old people/boomers etc v the young - so I suspect something else is going on in Europe.

I'm not sure how much it is technology, not least because it seems to be used to explain younger voters trending radical and older/boomer voters doing the same - when I suspect those groups have different technological habits and attitudes. My instinct is that in the US and UK part of it's actually education - young people are far more likely than old people to have gone to university while I'm not sure there's such a generational split in Europe. I think material factors are also a driver (although perhaps far more in the UK and Europe). In Europe I think there is, perhaps, also a more explicit anti-radical right and left consensus among older voters? I suspect that's broken down in younger generations.

Also not sure, in the context of Europe, that I agree on their being little or no equivalent on the left - if anything I think the populist wave started with the left. The indignados movement leading to Podemos, the Syriza government and Tsipras, Jeremy Corbyn becoming party leader (and, arguably, the relative success of Sanders in 2016), Melenchon's run for President and then the collapse of the French left into a party built around and by him. Plus maybe 5 Stars which doesn't really fit on left-right particularly well.

All of these also absolulutely have modern, technological aspects to their organising but it seems to be described in a less sinister way (a bit like how the first time I read about micro-targeting was in a broadly positive piece about Obama's data team ). The indignados, like Occupy or the Arab Spring were definitely enabled by social media and were organised online first, with people finding a community. I think there's something similar with Sanders supporters and Corbyn's campaign and Momentum. Most radical/interesting was perhaps 5 Stars who intially had meetups organised online around interests (a bit like caucuses or pressure groups within the old parties) and all candidates were selected online by members, the party line on legislation and policy positions were similarly decided through direct polls. That all went to the wayside eventually. Although separately I'd just note the different reaction of the EU and other insitutions like the IMF to Syriza in power compared to, say, Orban.

We are entering an era of rightwing populism because only the hard right has put any effort into stoking those fires.

Not sure on entering I think it's been at least 7 years and maybe more than double that (I think in the US Palin and then the Tea Party are really important - but not necessarily exactly the same as Trump).

I'm never sure on the helpfulness of populism as a way of framing things and I feel that, at least in Europe, we're moving beyond a populist wave to - for want of a better phrase the institutionalisation of the radical right. It's less breakthroughs than them becoming established parties and, perhaps because of that, the boundary between them and the mainstream/traditional right becoming increasingly blurred. I find that more concerning than their populism - I think I mentioned it before but I read a piece on how it's now a post-populist right and actually the mainstream right can work with, say, Meloni who isn't really populist. My concern with Meloni is she's from a post-fascist party (very literally) which I think is more dangerous than whether she's populist or not.

That said, I live in the Northeast and have worked in the Big Tech or startup worlds for the past five years, so my view may well be skewed towards noticing these types of activities.  If that's the case I'm probably overestimating just how much outreach is being done.  Note though that I'm not claiming the outreach as been effective, just that they're trying.

This shapes my view as well as I work in media so the other end of a lot of this tech innovation like micro-targeting - and I work closely with our advertising team, so I am very, very cynical about online targeting or behavioural profiling. It's a huge part of online advertising, but after a few drinks there is normally a debate on whether it's all a massive con (especially compared to pure contextual)

[crazy canuck]

For the US, I'm thinking of groups like the Democratic Socialists of America, the Working Families Party (though that's regional to the NE US), and various smaller groups that have emerged during the recent social justice wave.  For the UK I don't recall any particular groups, but I've seen lots of activism and outreach for socialist causes, either in connection with American issues or for overarching international causes (e.g., climate change, income inequality).

That said, I live in the Northeast and have worked in the Big Tech or startup worlds for the past five years, so my view may well be skewed towards noticing these types of activities.  If that's the case I'm probably overestimating just how much outreach is being done.  Note though that I'm not claiming the outreach as been effective, just that they're trying.

Interesting, I have never heard of them.  I get a lot of extreme right wing nonsense on social media, youtube etc.  I think it is because the algorithm thinks that because I like history and strategy games I am a good target.   

[Syt]

https://www.reporter.net/news/local_news/lebanon-man-charged-with-possession-of-child-porn/article_bc2b6a70-66dc-11ee-afc9-5bb57d630879.html

Lebanon man charged with possession of child porn

A Lebanon man is scheduled for trial in December after his arrest on a charge of possession of child pornography.

The Boone County Sexual Assault and Child Exploitation, CASE, Task Force linked the man with an image of a girl engaged in sex with an adult male, according to a probable cause affidavit filed in Boone Circuit Court.

The CASE Task Force in April received a tip from the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, NCMEC. The NCMEC is the national clearinghouse for cases of child pornography and exploitation and shares information with law enforcement.

The tip included an email address and user name, "MartianMassacre Productions," for an internet user who stored an image of a pre-pubescent girl engaged in intercourse with an adult male, according to the probable cause affidavit.

The task force did some internet sleuthing and linked Eldon W. Phelps, 25, to the image via his online and phone records, according to the affidavit.

Phelps told police when questioned in August they would find more child sexual abuse material on his desktop computer, according to the affidavit. Police seized the computer and other electronic devices belonging to Phelps via a search warrant and are doing forensic reviews of materials contained on them.

Phelps was arrested and bonded out of the Boone County Jail in August.

In 2021, about 117 cases involving crimes against children were investigated by Boone County law enforcement agencies. In 2022, the number grew to more than 150 cases, in addition to 52 internet crimes against children cases.

"Oops."

[Josquius]

I wonder if he even knew what that word meant.

Or if its just one or those funny old things like the mega homophobic politician being the one seeing same sex prostitutes.

But in France, Italy and, I believe, Germany it's not quite young votes trending fascist as Zanza flagged on Germany. It is more working age voters voting for the radical right. While the strongest support for the traditional establishment parties of right and left are generally 50+/60+. I think it's interesting because the narrative in the UK and I think US is old people/boomers etc v the young - so I suspect something else is going on in Europe.

Democracy?
They have far more democratic systems.
With similar in the UK who knows how different things might be.

[Jacob]

For the US, I'm thinking of groups like the Democratic Socialists of America, the Working Families Party (though that's regional to the NE US), and various smaller groups that have emerged during the recent social justice wave.  For the UK I don't recall any particular groups, but I've seen lots of activism and outreach for socialist causes, either in connection with American issues or for overarching international causes (e.g., climate change, income inequality).

That said, I live in the Northeast and have worked in the Big Tech or startup worlds for the past five years, so my view may well be skewed towards noticing these types of activities.  If that's the case I'm probably overestimating just how much outreach is being done.  Note though that I'm not claiming the outreach as been effective, just that they're trying.

Yeah those people exist, and say the usual things they say - but I don't think they have any kind of the amount of funding or focused online activity that the various radical right groups do. It seems to me that they're doing the same thing they did thirty years ago.

I don't think there's anyone funding left-wing online troll farms or churning out massive amounts of left-wing memes. There isn't - I don't think - a massive effort to create left-wing ragebait to drive the discourse and to tweak youtube and social media recommend algorithms.

This is anecdotal of course - but my social media engagement is fairly limited. I follow current events a bit, some history, and some gaming. I see radical right recommendations in my feed all the time, from the gentle intro level stuff to the occasional hard core. I basically never see what I'd consider the left-wing equivalent.

I let my boy do a bit of youtube looking for minecraft videos and the like, and Jordan Peterson pops up on his feed. I haven't seen anything remotely equivalent from the left side of the spectrum.

So I conclude that the left is failing and the right wing is succeeding.

[mongers]

Until today I'd never heard of 'weighted-blankets'. hmm:

[Josquius]

For the US, I'm thinking of groups like the Democratic Socialists of America, the Working Families Party (though that's regional to the NE US), and various smaller groups that have emerged during the recent social justice wave.  For the UK I don't recall any particular groups, but I've seen lots of activism and outreach for socialist causes, either in connection with American issues or for overarching international causes (e.g., climate change, income inequality).

That said, I live in the Northeast and have worked in the Big Tech or startup worlds for the past five years, so my view may well be skewed towards noticing these types of activities.  If that's the case I'm probably overestimating just how much outreach is being done.  Note though that I'm not claiming the outreach as been effective, just that they're trying.

Yeah those people exist, and say the usual things they say - but I don't think they have any kind of the amount of funding or focused online activity that the various radical right groups do. It seems to me that they're doing the same thing they did thirty years ago.

I don't think there's anyone funding left-wing online troll farms or churning out massive amounts of left-wing memes. There isn't - I don't think - a massive effort to create left-wing ragebait to drive the discourse and to tweak youtube and social media recommend algorithms.

This is anecdotal of course - but my social media engagement is fairly limited. I follow current events a bit, some history, and some gaming. I see radical right recommendations in my feed all the time, from the gentle intro level stuff to the occasional hard core. I basically never see what I'd consider the left-wing equivalent.

I let my boy do a bit of youtube looking for minecraft videos and the like, and Jordan Peterson pops up on his feed. I haven't seen anything remotely equivalent from the left side of the spectrum.

So I conclude that the left is failing and the right wing is succeeding.

I'd add that there sort of are those funding left wing trolls - though they do this as a false flag to sow division and shift things rightwards.

Though Russia want Trumps in power across the world, what they want even more than that is a sharply divided population that can't get anything done.

But yes. It is curious how far right stuff just pops up by default (just open youtube on a new computer...) whilst left wing stuff needs past interactions with left wing stuff to appear.

[Baron von Schtinkenbutt]

Yeah, I think I just have an uncommon viewport into the social media landscape.  I don't really see much in the way of right-wing recommendations, unless I'm on content that I consider right-wing-adjacent (e.g., military history videos).  Off Twitter most of what I hit is tech content, though, so it's not surprising.

[DGuller]

I don't get any right-wing recommendations either, although I get some for a while if I watch something like a Jordan Peterson video.

[Barrister]

Until today I'd never heard of 'weighted-blankets'. hmm:

I quite like mine, but it's really quite warm so Im only able to use it when it's quite cold out.