The Off Topic Topic

[garbon]

In my mind I'm more efficient at different things at the office and at home so hybrid works well for me.

But for those companies where remote is just as productive, what's the deal with making people go back to office? It can't just be a question of rent can it? The companies that down-sizes offices would have an advantage against those that don't so pure competition would favour remote work wouldn't it?

I think it is okay with senior people (I've some senior employees in South Africa who work fully from home) but less good for middle and early tier folks. While I'd love for it to work, I've seen too many times they don't ask questions they would ask me in person / miss out on learning from side conversations (though I've been trying more to invite juniors to conversations where I know they won't have much to add but can learn from it).

[Threviel]

Yeah, 100% WFH as a junior software developer for example sounds like a bad idea. You need to be somewhat self going. Also water cooler talk and other social stuff is important, so in my mind some office presence is needed for most everyone.

But other junior staff, customer services, support and the like might just as well sit at home most of the time. At least in most larger companies.

And HR would be a blessing if they just shut themselves in at home and leave the rest of us in peace.

[garbon]

And HR would be a blessing if they just shut themselves in at home and leave the rest of us in peace.

Well if people would stop acting so wild...

[HVC]

You don't want HR sitting at home with nothing to do except dream stuff up.

[frunk]

Yeah, 100% WFH as a junior software developer for example sounds like a bad idea. You need to be somewhat self going.

Our company has gone almost completely remote.  I've been in the office maybe 5 times since 2021.  We solve that by making an active effort to check in with and help out junior developers.  We also encourage asking questions at any/all opportunities.

[Iormlund]

There's also simply a lot of managers who struggle with WFH.


At work, management forced everyone to return to the office arguing we (white collar workers) are there to support Production.

Which might have made sense, except those of us who directly support Production did not WFH at all anyway and those in other roles would take turns to make sure there was always someone at the office.

[garbon]

Yeah, 100% WFH as a junior software developer for example sounds like a bad idea. You need to be somewhat self going.

Our company has gone almost completely remote.  I've been in the office maybe 5 times since 2021.  We solve that by making an active effort to check in with and help out junior developers.  We also encourage asking questions at any/all opportunities.

I did that for two years in my last role. Most of my juniors still wouldn't ask questions.

[crazy canuck]

Yeah, 100% WFH as a junior software developer for example sounds like a bad idea. You need to be somewhat self going.

Our company has gone almost completely remote.  I've been in the office maybe 5 times since 2021.  We solve that by making an active effort to check in with and help out junior developers.  We also encourage asking questions at any/all opportunities.

When I am in the office I have a constant stream of young people dropping into my office seeking help or advice - often on files they are working on for others.  Those same people rarely call when I am away from the office. Having personal interactions for mentoring and teaching is hard to duplicate remotely.

[crazy canuck]

Yeah, 100% WFH as a junior software developer for example sounds like a bad idea. You need to be somewhat self going.

Our company has gone almost completely remote.  I've been in the office maybe 5 times since 2021.  We solve that by making an active effort to check in with and help out junior developers.  We also encourage asking questions at any/all opportunities.

I did that for two years in my last role. Most of my juniors still wouldn't ask questions.

You beat me to it

[Threviel]

Yeah, 100% WFH as a junior software developer for example sounds like a bad idea. You need to be somewhat self going.

Our company has gone almost completely remote.  I've been in the office maybe 5 times since 2021.  We solve that by making an active effort to check in with and help out junior developers.  We also encourage asking questions at any/all opportunities.

I did that for two years in my last role. Most of my juniors still wouldn't ask questions.

Yes, that's why I think it's important for seniors and juniors to mingle at the work space. Lots of goody things to learn by general talk and discussion that doesn't happen as naturally over zoom.

[Threviel]

There's also simply a lot of managers who struggle with WFH.

Yes, but cutting away useless middle management should be a wet fantasy for higher management and owners/investors? In my experience there are lots of quite useless idiots that are just good at talking and exposing and removing those ought be a very high priority for higher management.

I just don't see the argument for less WFH in general for companies. They can save money on rent and probably make the organisation more efficient and at the same time have a higher morale.

[Tamas]

There's also simply a lot of managers who struggle with WFH.

Yes, but cutting away useless middle management should be a wet fantasy for higher management and owners/investors? In my experience there are lots of quite useless idiots that are just good at talking and exposing and removing those ought be a very high priority for higher management.

I just don't see the argument for less WFH in general for companies. They can save money on rent and probably make the organisation more efficient and at the same time have a higher morale.

Indeed. Few things in life are absolute positives/negatives and WFH has its own compromises. It's always the question of which approach has the most net benefits.

I know for me and many others WFH has meant a massive increase in life quality, and there are others for whom it was a clear net negative during lockdown because they didn't have the personal circumstances to make WFH work.

I had the advantage that even though I was forced to go into the office and work with remote teams from there, I had been working with remote teams in a number of roles for close to a decade by the time the lockdown came about. So I probably had more routine in how to keep the project teams talking to each other.

I do agree that probably for junior positions it'd be often better to be in the office with the veterans but equally this could be just lack of established patterns and ways to share ideas and ask questions.

In any case, I think we are (arriving) at the stage where working from the office needs to be justified by employers, as opposed to WFH having to be justified by employees. Just look at our discussion here - we are not discussing "WFH is a valid approach or not" but rather "going to the office is a valid approach or not".

[Josquius]

On the other hand for anyone, including juniors, WFH opens up jobs around the country without having to move.
So many junior jobs (and others. But more an issue with juniors) being locked in London is a huge pusher of inequality in the UK. With wfh these jobs are opened to everyone.

[frunk]

Yeah, 100% WFH as a junior software developer for example sounds like a bad idea. You need to be somewhat self going.

Our company has gone almost completely remote.  I've been in the office maybe 5 times since 2021.  We solve that by making an active effort to check in with and help out junior developers.  We also encourage asking questions at any/all opportunities.

I did that for two years in my last role. Most of my juniors still wouldn't ask questions.

That's not been our experience, but YMMV.  I think part of it is our system is complicated enough that everyone has to ask questions, from the CTO on down, so if you don't get comfortable asking questions then you aren't going to get anything done.

Also, personally, I find it much easier to send a message or ask for a zoom call than to walk up to someone and talk to them.  I feel like I'm not imposing on their time as much, as they can choose to either respond right away or set a later time/date for the conversation.

[garbon]

Yeah, 100% WFH as a junior software developer for example sounds like a bad idea. You need to be somewhat self going.

Our company has gone almost completely remote.  I've been in the office maybe 5 times since 2021.  We solve that by making an active effort to check in with and help out junior developers.  We also encourage asking questions at any/all opportunities.

I did that for two years in my last role. Most of my juniors still wouldn't ask questions.

That's not been our experience, but YMMV.  I think part of it is our system is complicated enough that everyone has to ask questions, from the CTO on down, so if you don't get comfortable asking questions then you aren't going to get anything done.

Also, personally, I find it much easier to send a message or ask for a zoom call than to walk up to someone and talk to them.  I feel like I'm not imposing on their time as much, as they can choose to either respond right away or set a later time/date for the conversation.

Yeah in my world you can kind of muddle through / get senior people to fix mistakes.

I think people found it more difficult to call as they felt it needed to be something significant to call on zoom...whereas if all in office they would look at me and ask. And that was despite making clear a large part of my role was making sure they could learn process (about 1/3 my time), asking them to call about anything, and actually being easy to reach on teams.