EU Immigration Crisis Megathread

[crazy canuck]

Not surprising those nation states, which have worked so long to purify themselves, are not enthusiastic about becoming multi-national societies. But what can you do?

multinational states don't have a good trackrecord, one wonders why a certain section of the populace wants to turn the whole world into a Balkansoup

Well the richest country in the world is a multi-ethnic state, so I wouldn't exactly say there's a bad track record.

I am not sure what he meant by "multinational".  Perhaps he meant multi-ethnic.  If he did he is clearly wrong.  But perhaps he meant something else?

[Valmy]

I am not sure what he meant by "multinational".  Perhaps he meant multi-ethnic.  If he did he is clearly wrong.  But perhaps he meant something else?

I used the word and I meant it in a multi-ethnic sense. I guess I am used to the idea that a 'nation' is the political expression of an 'ethnic group'.

[Valmy]

Just saying. If Europe wants to be a world leading society again they need these people

not really

Hard to be dynamic while clinging to 19th and 20th century ideas. Not to mention an aging population, which breeds conservatism. And actually just does not breed period.

I am not unsympathetic to why Euro-land is not taking them all in with open arms. I disagree but I understand. But they need to have some kind of plan, their little nation states are incapable of handling this crisis (or any crisis really) on their own.

[Martinus]

Just saying. If Europe wants to be a world leading society again they need these people

not really

Why not?

[Zanza]

Just saying. If Europe wants to be a world leading society again they need these people

not really

Why not?

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Unemployment_statistics

[Martinus]

I suppose Crazy Ivan meant a state like Austria-Hungary, Belgium or Yugoslavia, which were/are multi-national in that they were nation states of more than one nation understood in an ethnic sense. That's a completely different beast from the likes of the US or Canada, which have one dominant national culture but one that is not based around the concept of ethnicity.

[Zanza]

Valmy quoted an article which said that the refugees could be the basis for economic growth in Europe and Valmy concurred on this. Crazy Ivan said that he disagrees.
I find the theory that they'll be a significant econimic benefit questionable and would rather expect them to be an economic negative - at least in the midterm.
I also find the general idea that Europe needs more young people understandable from a demographics perspective, but right now there are 23 million unemployeds and many of them young people in the EU, so I am not sure if the main obstacle to economic growth in Europe right now is lack of workforce. Adding to that workforce right now will likely not have a net positive effect.

So the I find the whole economic argument why we should take in refugees implausible. I do think that there are other good reasons to take them in though.

[The Brain]

Well they need food, housing, healthcare etc etc etc, lots of lefties think that any and all spending is good for the economy.

[Martinus]

Valmy quoted an article which said that the refugees could be the basis for economic growth in Europe and Valmy concurred on this. Crazy Ivan said that he disagrees.
I find the theory that they'll be a significant econimic benefit questionable and would rather expect them to be an economic negative - at least in the midterm.
I also find the general idea that Europe needs more young people understandable from a demographics perspective, but right now there are 23 million unemployeds and many of them young people in the EU, so I am not sure if the main obstacle to economic growth in Europe right now is lack of workforce. Adding to that workforce right now will likely not have a net positive effect.

So the I find the whole economic argument why we should take in refugees implausible. I do think that there are other good reasons to take them in though.

I agree. By selling a moral issue as a self-interest issue we risk losing both. This is about helping people in need - this may be in a long term "enlightened self interest" but in a short term it's about using our resources to help people who need our help (and are in a much worse situation than we are) - I suppose this is time to show that Europe is really a part of Christian culture (even if it evolved into the Enlightenment).

[crazy canuck]

I don't understand the argument that immigration in nations that have flat or negative birth rates is bad for the economy.

[Martinus]

I don't understand the argument that immigration in nations that have flat or negative birth rates is bad for the economy.

I don't think this is the argument as much as saying that this is irrelevant. You act in a humane way not because it is profitable but because you are a human being.

[Valmy]

I agree. By selling a moral issue as a self-interest issue we risk losing both.

What is the moral principle at stake here?

[The Brain]

I don't understand the argument that immigration in nations that have flat or negative birth rates is bad for the economy.

OK.

[Martinus]

I agree. By selling a moral issue as a self-interest issue we risk losing both.

What is the moral principle at stake here?

Acting morally is not done out of self-interest? 

[Valmy]

I don't understand the argument that immigration in nations that have flat or negative birth rates is bad for the economy.

I don't think this is the argument as much as saying that this is irrelevant. You act in a humane way not because it is profitable but because you are a human being.

So...one should never discuss the benefits of immigration because it cheapens all the penance of sins that has to be carried out? I don't follow.